24mm F3.8 Elmar on 60mp Sensor

[Edgar1920]

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Dear JTLeica

i made it through this thread as I am interested in this lens, too. And reading that it is practically comparable with the Super-Elmar gives me confidence in giving it a try with a second hand lens.

Concerning your initial questions my technical answer is that a lens does not have a limit of resolution of course. The higher your sensor’s resolution is the lower the contrast between 2 pixels might become if you photograph line pair test charts or if you take pictures of very fine details like fine hair or furs (or whatever very fine resolving texture). 
So your picture might need a tad more post processing if you get close to the resolving power of the lens in a challenging situation. 
Of course a bad resolving lens may not provide enough information for a 60MP sensor if the subject you picture has higher amounts of detail. If it’s less detailed the issue might not be noticeable.

A thought about MP and resolution: 4x higher MP means only 2x higher resolution. So 100MP vs 25MP is just doubles resolution.

i would not be afraid of testing the lens on your M11. Wait for a good second hand deal and if you don’t like it sell it for the same price.

Best regards

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[01af]

Am 3.8.2024 um 01:20 schrieb JTLeica:

I don’t understand why Peter Karbe stated that his lens designs are created to hold up to 100 MP sensors ...

He said so because that's what people want to hear.

For about 180 years now, newer lens designs usually are better than older lens designs. Still, even the latest don't have megapixels. Roger Cicala's bonmot still applies, and always will.

[Robert Blanko]

I think Mr. Karbe rather had the MTF in mind.

https://www.nikonusa.com/learn-and-explore/c/products-and-innovation/what-is-a-lens-mtf-chart-how-do-i-read-it

If the MTF only provides very poor contrast for resolving very fine details, a high resolution sensor will not cure said deficiency when sampling the image projected onto the sensor.

Edited August 4, 2024 by Robert Blanko
Adapted link

[JTLeica]

3 hours ago, 01af said:

He said so because that's what people want to hear.

For about 180 years now, newer lens designs usually are better than older lens designs. Still, even the latest don't have megapixels. Roger Cicala's bonmot still applies, and always will.

I don’t recall ever intimating lenses have megapixels. 

But it’s very clear to me that sharpness across the frame at 100% is not the same on a high res sensor. Common sense prevails here. Theres enough online about the 24mm Elmar on older camera but not on the m11s.

I also didn’t say anywhere that older / softer lenses are not improved when put on better sensors.

 

[01af]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb JTLeica:

But it’s very clear to me that sharpness across the frame at 100 % is not the same on a high res sensor.

Not the same compared to what?

[JTLeica]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

Not the same compared to what?

Compared to a lower resolution sensor. 24mp vs 60 I know isn’t as large a difference as it seems. But, a lens that appears sharp at 100% view from a 24mp image, might not appear sharp at 100% (pixel level) on a 60mp sensor. It might, but might not be.

If you take it to the extremes. An old canon 8mp 1DS, basically any lens looked ok at that resolution. Now they are at 50mp, those same lenses at 100% view don’t look as good. Sure, viewing the same size at you did at 8mp we see a slight improvement but not at full view.

Not sure how else I can explain this 

[MaticB]

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1 hour ago, JTLeica said:

Compared to a lower resolution sensor. 24mp vs 60 I know isn’t as large a difference as it seems. But, a lens that appears sharp at 100% view from a 24mp image, might not appear sharp at 100% (pixel level) on a 60mp sensor. It might, but might not be.

If you take it to the extremes. An old canon 8mp 1DS, basically any lens looked ok at that resolution. Now they are at 50mp, those same lenses at 100% view don’t look as good. Sure, viewing the same size at you did at 8mp we see a slight improvement but not at full view.

Not sure how else I can explain this 

Your doubts and thoughts are resonable in some way. In reality I would suggest - just use basic ISO for the sensor and you will get best possible results! 

[01af]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb JTLeica:

But, a lens that appears sharp at 100 % view from a 24 MP image, might not appear sharp at 100 % (pixel level) on a 60 MP sensor.

Duh ... the usual misconception.

Are you aware that 100 % of a big amount is more than 100 % of a smaller amount?

A 60 MP image at 100 % view gets magnified 1.6× more than a 24 MP image at 100 % view (when the sensors are the same size and the images viewed on the same monitor). And at higher magnification, any shortcomings of a lens will become more obvious. Naturally. This has nothing to do with the sensors' different pixel counts. Just with different magnifications.

Compare the 24 MP image at 160 % view to the 60 MP image at 100 % view. Alternatively, compare the 24 MP image at 100 % view to the 60 MP image at 63 % view. Then the images will appear equally sharp (because they actually are equally sharp when taken with the same lens).

[JTLeica]

5 hours ago, 01af said:

Duh ... the usual misconception.

Are you aware that 100 % of a big amount is more than 100 % of a smaller amount?

A 60 MP image at 100 % view gets magnified 1.6× more than a 24 MP image at 100 % view (when the sensors are the same size and the images viewed on the same monitor). And at higher magnification, any shortcomings of a lens will become more obvious. Naturally. This has nothing to do with the sensors' different pixel counts. Just with different magnifications.

Compare the 24 MP image at 160 % view to the 60 MP image at 100 % view. Alternatively, compare the 24 MP image at 100 % view to the 60 MP image at 63 % view. Then the images will appear equally sharp (because they actually are equally sharp when taken with the same lens).

You have not read what I originally asked. Or what I have wrote on this thread, I am 100% clear that at the same magnification, or viewed at the same size 24/60/200/2000mp will look more or less the same, of course some downsampling improvement but let’s forget that.

I don’t care about the actual comparison of two resolutions. Just used as an example and maybe that’s confused you.

I ONLY wanted to confirm this lens at 60mp (or a higher magnification if you want to look at it that way, but for practical purposes we are talking about the exact same thing) the lens is still sharp and flaws aren’t starting to show. This was all I wanted to know, nothing to do with lenses being better on higher res sensors, nothing to do with lenses having a megapixel count either

I am a landscape photographer, feel free to look at my work, I care about cross frame sharpness and lenses I can rely on at high resolution. Not all lenses can be.

[JTLeica]

On 8/3/2024 at 2:30 PM, Edgar1920 said:

Dear JTLeica

. 
Of course a bad resolving lens may not provide enough information for a 60MP sensor if the subject you picture has higher amounts of detail. If it’s less detailed the issue might not be noticeable.

Thank you.

This ^ was my entire question summed up in one short sentence. This was all (nothing more) that I was asking about this specific lens. 

When an M or SL goes to 200mp in 10 years, likely I don’t be using certain lenses for landscape photography, if at that time I feel I need to make use of the full resolution.

Totally understand a lens doesn’t get wore over time, but when you are introduced to new standards, some things done keep up, or new ones designs would never need to exist 

[Edgar1920]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb JTLeica:

Thank you.

This ^ was my entire question summed up in one short sentence. This was all (nothing more) that I was asking about this specific lens. 

When an M or SL goes to 200mp in 10 years, likely I don’t be using certain lenses for landscape photography, if at that time I feel I need to make use of the full resolution.

Totally understand a lens doesn’t get wore over time, but when you are introduced to new standards, some things done keep up, or new ones designs would never need to exist 

I personally own the 24mm Elmarit ASPh (1:2.8) that I bought some years ago and used this year with my M10-R in the colosseum in Rome. The amount of detail from this lens lets you count the bricks. 
Not having a better performing comparison I was overwhelmed by the detail rendering and general image quality. 
 

I expect the Elmar-ASPH and Super Elmar to outperform. Especially for eventual distortion and edge to edge sharpness.

You find some pictures of this series in lower resolution on my website www.rimpl.photo

if you are interested in some RAW files let me know. 
BTW I imagine that in general architectural brick structures are more challenging a lens than less “well organized” or “well aligned” landscape and natural structures. 
 

Regards

[ocean2059]

9 hours ago, JTLeica said:

Thank you.

This ^ was my entire question summed up in one short sentence. This was all (nothing more) that I was asking about this specific lens. 

When an M or SL goes to 200mp in 10 years, likely I don’t be using certain lenses for landscape photography, if at that time I feel I need to make use of the full resolution.

Totally understand a lens doesn’t get wore over time, but when you are introduced to new standards, some things done keep up, or new ones designs would never need to exist 

As you mentioned, your user case is landscape so the cross frame sharpness is your main concerns if the Elmar-m 24/3.8 is sufficient for 60mp sensor. If you look at the MTF charts for this lens, it's one of the best 24/25 for your application. You should have no problems using it on for your M11. Wide open, it is better than the other 25/25 lens, namely, Elmarit-m 24/2.8 and Biogon 25/2.8 zm. You may want to listen to Peter's presentation, over 90 minutes, regarding the design criterion for different generations of M lenses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ1xM7qVSXo

The reason that many people responded here negative has to do with the way you frame the question or lack of context and proper references. For example, what is your application medium, printing large prints, displaying on large high resolution monitor or just pixel viewing on your computer monitors?

I have the Elmar-m 24/3.8 for many years and use it on several generations of M digital bodies including M11. I have prints of 20 x 30 (inch) using this lens with M9. With M11, I would have no hesitation to print 40 x 60 (inch) prints provided with proper view distance.

[JTLeica]

59 minutes ago, ocean2059 said:

As you mentioned, your user case is landscape so the cross frame sharpness is your main concerns if the Elmar-m 24/3.8 is sufficient for 60mp sensor. If you look at the MTF charts for this lens, it's one of the best 24/25 for your application. You should have no problems using it on for your M11. Wide open, it is better than the other 25/25 lens, namely, Elmarit-m 24/2.8 and Biogon 25/2.8 zm. You may want to listen to Peter's presentation, over 90 minutes, regarding the design criterion for different generations of M lenses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ1xM7qVSXo

The reason that many people responded here negative has to do with the way you frame the question or lack of context and proper references. For example, what is your application medium, printing large prints, displaying on large high resolution monitor or just pixel viewing on your computer monitors?

I have the Elmar-m 24/3.8 for many years and use it on several generations of M digital bodies including M11. I have prints of 20 x 30 (inch) using this lens with M9. With M11, I would have no hesitation to print 40 x 60 (inch) prints provided with proper view distance.

Thanks for your considered response. I can apologise if I framed the question in the wrong way.

I am pleased to hear your opinion on the 24mm. I have since purchased one, so I guess I now have to do a few tests and report back

 

[Robert Blanko]

The 24/3.8 is indeed a superb lens on my M10R. Have no doubts that it will be similarly good on an M11.

Unfortunately, it is no longer available new. Any idea why?

[JTLeica]

40 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

This is Peter Karbe, former head of Department of optical engineering at Leica. He designed the 24/3.8 lens. He made sure it is as flat field as possible to battle field curvature for landscape photographers. He put in his best effort to design this absolute gem of a lens that will *absolutely* shine on any current 35mm Leica sensor.
When designing this lens he had this slide in mind. Left is the 24mpix sensor and right is the 60mpix sensor. He likes his food gourmet.
So the question should not be whether this is "a lens that resolves all of the 60mp sensor", the question should be how gourmet you actually are.

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I guess I am a little gourmet then 🤫 especially concerning landscape lenses. Or at least lenses that I used predominantly for that.

Others not so much.

[JTLeica]

Just now, Robert Blanko said:

The 24/3.8 is indeed a superb lens on my M10R. Have no doubts that it will be similarly good on an M11.

Unfortunately, it is no longer available new. Any idea why?

I think they discontinued them a few years ago.

Google provided this:

Fotogoerlitz (www.fotogoerlitz.de) informed that the following Leica M lenses are no more available – apparently, the lenses are no longer in production: Leica Super-Elmar-M 18mm f/3.8 ASPH. Leica Summilux-M 24mm f/1.4 ASPH. Leica Elmar-M 24mm f/3.8 ASPH.12 Mar 2020

 

[ocean2059]

20 minutes ago, JTLeica said:

Thanks for your considered response. I can apologise if I framed the question in the wrong way.

I am pleased to hear your opinion on the 24mm. I have since purchased one, so I guess I now have to do a few tests and report back

 

Congratulations! You will like the lens. Even though 24 is not a common focal length for Leica M, the optical performance of the Elmar-m 24 is really top notch. This is one of the second generation of ASPH wide angle lenses, a trio of them, developed under Peter Karbe, Super Elmar-m 18/3.8, Super Elmar-m 21/3.5 and Elmar-m 24/3.8. All three of them have similar performance characteristics, very high resolving power and great contrast across the frame wide open with beautiful color saturation and clarity. For this generation of ASPH lenses, Peter Karbe wanted user to shoot wide open unless one needs to step down for depth of field.  

I really enjoy looking at the landscape images in your website, very nice. You shouldn't worry about printing large with this lens.

Please do post your images here. Thank you.

 

[Edgar1920]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Al Brown:

The complete 24mm line including this one and Summilux 24 is discontinued. AFAIK 24mm was not the most popular focal length in M paradise, falling just short of frameline coverage  (although those who know the secret 24mm framing tip do not complain).

Luke wise there are enough second hand lenses on the market. I discovered the 24mm only late in my photographic life.. but it was a good discovery, especially with 40MP where you can composer your travel light kit with two “odd” focal lengths: 24 + 75mm around my 35mm. No external finder needed if you use the entire finder window knowing that there is a little more on the picture. 3 lenses and everything for urban carry on equipment is stiffens in a light bag and on the strap around the neck.

The “missing” focal lengths 28,50 and 90mm can with 24MP (or for resolution enthusiasts with 40MP) obtained by cropping.

I don’t regret my 24mm purchase and will probably keep it for a long time. Especially for city trips and architecture i like this focal length very well.

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[costa43]

I own this lens and it is awesome. I’ve not used it on the 60mp sensor but I’ve used it on the m10r and it’s perfect. I don’t doubt it will be fine on the m11. 

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Edited August 5, 2024 by costa43