24mm F3.8 Elmar on 60mp Sensor

[JTLeica]

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Hi guys,

I am considering picking up this lens as there are a couple at decent prices in perfect condition.

I am ok with the frame line issue.

This was designed a little before the 21mm SE, is this lens as good as that? Does it hold up on M11 / SL3?

For me its important that it does... I am assuming so, but there isnt a huge amount on this especially on M11's

Cheers for any info

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[Ecar]

Why wouldn't it?

[Jürgen]

The 3,8/24mm M-Elmar is one of the best M lenses - and good for 100MP

[JTLeica]

Guys, 

Thanks. But I think you know what I mean. Lenses that are sharp at 24MP are not sharp always sharp at significantly higher MP… 60 is a significantly higher density sensor.

A lens whilst still resolving more and more with higher MPs they reach their limit somewhere. 

I’ll ask another way. Does the 24mm Elmar still outresolve the 60mp sensor as it did the 24mp sensor?

 

[Ecar]

A common misconception. It's been discussed numerous times on this forum. Here are a couple (of many) links:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/375458-leica-lens-qualityresolution-vs-mp-countis-this-really-a-thing/

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/375703-how-do-lenses-resolve-higher-megapixels-i-keep-hearing-this-on-some-youtube-videos/

Btw, the Elmar 24/3.8 is an amazing lens, irrespective of the sensor😉

Edited August 1, 2024 by Ecar

[rsolomon]

I had one …. Traded to the 21 SEM…. The 24 is outstanding (so is the 21). BTW on the M while no frame lines just use outer edges 

[01af]

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Lenses have no megapixels. A good lens will be good on any sensor. If you liked the Elmar-M 24 mm Asph on film, on M9, or on any 24 MP camera then you will love it on the M11.

[Mute-on]

I don’t own a 24 Elmar, but it is one discontinued M lens I would not hesitate to acquire, given the opportunity.

I think @JTLeica you should review this thread, particularly later posts on M11s 

As you will observe, the images from much earlier lenses on the M11 are spectacular.

Also for reference on the lens itself …

Personally, after reviewing many posts on M11, SL3, SL2, and any Leica over 24MP it is obvious, even on internet based images, that the higher MP cameras only enhance the output of ANY lens. This resolving power concept, whilst technically relatable to lp/mm charts is otherwise meaningless academic nonsense if you are actually interested in creating IMAGES. 

Edited August 1, 2024 by Mute-on

[JTLeica]

10 hours ago, 01af said:

Lenses have no megapixels. A good lens will be good on any sensor. If you liked the Elmar-M 24 mm Asph on film, on M9, or on any 24 MP camera then you will love it on the M11.

Sure I understand the point being made, but, I want a lens that resolves all of the 60mp sensor. Peter Karbe himself talked before about making lenses that 'resolve' beyond a 100mp sensor.

I agree, any lens is made better by a higher res sensor. But, as a landscape photographer choosing high res sensors, I want the lens to out resolve the sensor, or be at least its equal. That was my only question here.

[JTLeica]

10 hours ago, Mute-on said:

I don’t own a 24 Elmar, but it is one discontinued M lens I would not hesitate to acquire, given the opportunity.

I think @JTLeica you should review this thread, particularly later posts on M11s 

As you will observe, the images from much earlier lenses on the M11 are spectacular.

Also for reference on the lens itself …

Personally, after reviewing many posts on M11, SL3, SL2, and any Leica over 24MP it is obvious, even on internet based images, that the higher MP cameras only enhance the output of ANY lens. This resolving power concept, whilst technically relatable to lp/mm charts is otherwise meaningless academic nonsense if you are actually interested in creating IMAGES. 

Thanks for these links.

If a lens has imperfection, higher res sensors are enlarging those imperfections, right?

At 1mp, every leica lens, ever, will Loog essentially razor sharp, those lenses at 100mp, will start to show imperfections that you couldnt see before. That is the same for 24 vs 60, just far, far less noticeable.

So the point kinda remains, am I getting the absolute most out of the 60mp sensor in terms of resolution by using the 24 3.8? I think the answer is yet from what I read and your feedback. But the same cannot be said for a 35 Pre ASPH Lux, even though my 60mp sensor is making the lens 'better'

[lct]

Only practical way to answer your question would be to use the 24/3.8 asph on a 100mp sensor, which i never did so far. What is clear is that at the centre of the frame, little details i cannot see with my 24mp M240 are visible on the 60mp M11 when pixel peeping. But what is true on the center of the frame is not so true in the corners, especially at full aperture. FWIW.

[didier]

The Elmar 24 is amazingly sharp.

I use it along the APOs 35, 50 & 75 and they all work perfectly well with the M10M sensor, even at pixel level.

I doubt you’d have any dissatisfaction with a 60 MP color sensor.

[01af]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb JTLeica:

Sure I understand the point being made ...

You do?

.

vor 12 Stunden schrieb JTLeica:

... but, I want a lens that resolves all of the 60 MP sensor.

So no, you don't understand the point being made.

.

vor 12 Stunden schrieb JTLeica:

... as a landscape photographer choosing high-res sensors, I want the lens to out resolve the sensor, or be at least its equal.

If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.
–– Roger Cicala, www.lensrentals.com

[Malabito]

I been using mine with the m11 and love the lens! Have absolutely no complains with it....

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[JTLeica]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

You do?

.

So no, you don't understand the point being made.

.

If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.
–– Roger Cicala, www.lensrentals.com

Cheers for the helpful post and the sarcasm. Really insightful.

If I am not understanding something, try explaining in a different way. Instead, you turn to sarcastic jibes

 

[JTLeica]

I’m not sure how else to phrase my comment, if someone would like to spell it out in plain English that would be great.

I don’t understand why Peter Karbe stated that his lens designs are created to hold up to 100mp sensors, and yet I phrase a specific question about essentially the exact same thing and it gets shot down?

Can someone please explain why it’s such a stupid thing to ask / think that on a high re sensor, some flaws in lenses will be more apparent. At the same viewing distance, they won’t be, but at max magnification on a screen or a larger print surely that is the case? That is just common logic right?

As said in a previous post. I can shoot an image in an old pre asphericl sunmilux at 4 megapixels and it’ll be razor sharp in appearance, yet blown up to the full 60 and you see the flaws. 

 

[lct]

I don't see anything stupid in your question. It's just that i have no experience with details the lens could resolve when used on a more than 60mp sensor, and other colleagues here don't seem to have more experience on this point. I guess we will know more if/when the M12 or M13 has a 100mp sensor.

[JTLeica]

50 minutes ago, lct said:

I don't see anything stupid in your question. It's just that i have no experience with details the lens could resolve when used on a more than 60mp sensor, and other colleagues here don't seem to have more experience on this point. I guess we will know more if/when the M12 or M13 has a 100mp sensor.

🫡 Cheers LCT

24 vs 60mp was the question. I dont really want to use a lens that is not getting the most out of the 60mp sensor in some scenarios. The 24 Elmar will be used alongside a 50 APO, 35 APO Lanthar and 90 APO for landscape work. I am totally comfortable with the results at 60mp with those lenses, they are sharp at 100% magnification across the frame. As I dont have experience with the 24, I wanted to ask.

I am sure not sure if other struggled with the way I phrased the question. I want critical sharpness across the frame.

 

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[LeicaR10]

JTLeica,  Based on my experience with the superb 24 Elmar and M11, the lens has no issues resolving from center, to edges with the sensor.  I use mine for landscape photography.  It's one of the best M lenses made.  Just make sure the lens is not decentered or has haze, fungus or scratches.  The 24 Elmar excels in color, contrast, almost no field curvature and minimal distortion....most excellent for landscape and architecture photography.  r/ Mark

[lct]

1 hour ago, JTLeica said:

[...] 24 vs 60mp was the question. I dont really want to use a lens that is not getting the most out of the 60mp sensor in some scenarios. The 24 Elmar will be used alongside a 50 APO, 35 APO Lanthar and 90 APO for landscape work. I am totally comfortable with the results at 60mp with those lenses, they are sharp at 100% magnification across the frame. As I dont have experience with the 24, I wanted to ask.

The lens excels on both my 24mp (M240) and 60mp (M11) cameras. As for sharpness across the frame at 100% magnification, corners are a bit softer, especially at full aperture, but it is more or less the same with all my UWA lenses so i would not worry about that. MTF graphs below are self explanatory. Happy snaps 🙂

LeicaM_2438_specs_page_03.pdf