on the fence with M11-P

[brickftl]

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I've had my silver M11-P for about a month and not sure whether to keep or sell it. Problem is that I have difficulty getting tack sharp images like I can with my M10. I've tested and don't discern a rangefinder alignment issue because now and then I am able to get a decently sharp image as below (f3.4, 1/180s, ISO 200). 

This is the same problem I had years ago when Fuji came out with its first medium format cam, the GFX50. It took a VERY steady hand with a faster shutter speed before I could get a majority of my images decently sharp, but it was an effort. Similarly I have a Sony A7RV that I only use for performance photography and I find its images aren't as sharp as I got using the same lens on my former Sony A7iv.

My feeling is that with lots of effort (and perhaps much more practice) I can up my percentage of acceptably (to my standards) sharp images with my M11-P, but I'm not sure I feel like putting in the effort when taking wonderfully sharp images with my M10 is a breeze. Things I like about the M11-P over the M10 are the improved battery, waterproofing, internal SSD. And my M11-P has a 12/23 build date with the latest software, and I've experienced zero freezes/lockups/corrupted images.

But if I'm being totally honest, the supposed better performance with high ISO images of the M11-P over the M10 I'm not really seeing (although certainly both of them clean up nicely with Topaz AI and ACR AI noise reduction). 

Any thoughts are welcome.

 

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Edited July 31, 2024 by brickftl

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[hjddd]

the 60MP resolution needs much higher safe shutter speed……it means stable hand control ， you may get a M10-R instead

[brickftl]

2 minutes ago, hjddd said:

the 60MP resolution needs much higher safe shutter speed……it means stable hand control ， you may get a M10-R instead

I'm not interested at all in the M10-R. If I decide to forgo the extra MP's of the M11-P, I'd just as soon revert to my M10 which is a wonderful 24mp cam, same sensor as the original Leica Q whose images I loved more than those from my Q2 and then Q3 (which I sold to get the M10)

[jakontil]

If you can work it out getting a sharp images without distracting ur enjoyment of using M, stick with M11

u will miss the battery life, not that M10 aint that great, it’s just the feeling u wont run out of battery anytime soon

[Knorp]

If you can't get sharp images either without IS (M11-P) or with IS (A7R5), I'm wondering what technical tools could help you to achieve acceptable results: a tripod ?

One question though; are your images not sharp because of unsteady handling or too slow shutterspeed or because they are not in focus ?

All the best.

 

 

[newtoleica]

One point in addition to those made above. Don’t judge the image at 100% on the screen. It will be too unforgiving. Resize to a final print size and look at that (or better still print it). Images printed at A3 on the M10 and M11 should be equally sharp. 

[colonel]

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Remember that when you are looking for sharpness with the M11, you are probably looking at pixel level which is much more detailed then the 24mp. If you look downsized you should see the same sharpness. To get tak sharp at 60mp, I found, with the Q3, you need to set the min speed (if you are using A or otherwise) to higher then normal, say 1/250. This means you go up the ISO ladder faster, but it’s worth it for tak sharp pictures. Unfortunately the M11 doesn’t have sensor stabilisation, like the Q3, so you need to put in other measures when hand held. Lastly, also try personal stabilisation more, eg leaning against a tree or lamppost when available. Just need to hone technique a bit. The good news about having 60mo is that when you can be stable it’s available, eg for landscapes with tripod or on a wall. When you don’t need it you could just use a lower resolution, or downscale.

[thighslapper]

I've never been that convinced that increased resolution (24 to 60) makes as much difference as folk claim when it comes to handholding.

24mp roughly equates to the best fine grain 35mm film .... so handholding limits should be similar to that traditionally advised for various focal lengths 

Linear resolution is only increased by 50% or so when jumping to 60mp, so yes, handholding speeds will increase but certainly less than double. 

Ability to handhold low shutter speeds is very person and technique dependent and it could just be you are pushing the limits of what you are capable, rather than any issue with the camera.

Having said that, the main reason I dumped the M digital series were the limits imposed by the rangefinder system and the difficulty getting all my lenses calibrated to work perfectly with each camera body (if more than one, or changed). Leica adjust to a 'tolerance', not an exact point so there are always discrepancies. That DOES show up more and more as pixel count increases.

As pointed out above .... increasing resolution amplifies the limits of DOF or focus errors when viewed at 100% on a monitor .... but a lot of this vanishes at normal print and viewing sizes. 

My main camera is a 100mpx GFX and plenty of images with minor camera shake and misfocus are perfectly usable for print and internet use. 

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by thighslapper

[harmen]

As others have already pointed out, it only seems different when you zoom in to pixel level.  And that makes perfect sense, because where does any lack of sharpness come from?  It would be how well you focus and how still you keep the camera.  Both of those have nothing to do with the sensor.  The light that is projected on the sensor doesn’t know how many pixels there are.  So there is zero difference between an M9 and an M11’s sharpness.  All that changed is the ‘emulsion’ and hence how you can zoom in onto it.   Print and be happy 😉

[wizard]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb colonel:

Remember that when you are looking for sharpness with the M11, you are probably looking at pixel level which is much more detailed then the 24mp.

That is exactly the point. Users are sometimes comparing apples and oranges without being aware of it. 

@brickftl, try to examine your M10 shots at the same magnification as your M11P shots. And I am not talking about screen magnification percentage here. Take some shots, one each with the M10 and one with the M11P, of the same subject with the same lens and the same settings, and then compare them side by side on a large screen, each at a screen magnification that renders details of that shot at the same size on your screen. I'd be surprised if your M10 shots were sharper than your M11P shots. 

 

[brickftl]

thanks for all the above, food for thought. I almost never print, and instead just share images online.

My challenge has been that I'm primarily a street shooter, often shooting moving people. But still I think I just need to slow my process a bit, be more cognizant of keeping steady hands (I don't have hands that shake so that's a good thing) and increase shutter speed as needed. 

I haven't tried lowering resolution to 36MP, so I'll give that a try and see how it affects my images. 

Or wait for Leica to introduce a M10 with same shutter sound, battery, waterproofing as the M11-P 

[Derbyshire Man]

@brickftlYour finished printed or displayed images will be just as sharp M10 vs M11 all things being equal. Look upon the M11 as a bonus, you have the potential if you make additional effort in terms of concentration, shutter speed choice or tripod to get a sharper & larger print with the M11 than M10.

[jonoslack]

26 minutes ago, brickftl said:

thanks for all the above, food for thought. I almost never print, and instead just share images online.

My challenge has been that I'm primarily a street shooter, often shooting moving people. But still I think I just need to slow my process a bit, be more cognizant of keeping steady hands (I don't have hands that shake so that's a good thing) and increase shutter speed as needed. 

I haven't tried lowering resolution to 36MP, so I'll give that a try and see how it affects my images. 

Or wait for Leica to introduce a M10 with same shutter sound, battery, waterproofing as the M11-P 

The M11 has an excellent option in the Auto ISO settings where you can set the minimum shutter speed - I always have it set to 1/4 focal length - so for a 50mm it'll default to 1/200th - works for me! Also remember that zooming in to 100% on the M11 is much more zoomy than with the M10! 

[costa43]

I have also noticed that I can handhold at lower speeds on my older cameras than I can on my m10r. On that body, I shoot in auto iso with a minimum shutter speed of 1/250th and I just let the ISO do its thing up to 12500. When the light gets low or if the subject is stationary then I will manually adjust the shutter speed down to no more than 1/60th and then back to auto. When I shoot street I set it to a minimum of 1/500th. I'm happy with some noise, the detail is there nowadays even at high ISO. 

Edited July 31, 2024 by costa43

[brickftl]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I shot this on my 21/3.4 Super Elmar which I love for street shooting during the day because I can pretty much use it as a point and shoot at f8 and above. I keep it at waist level and roughly estimate distance, moving the focus tab accordingly given the wide in focus zones.

Settings were f8, 1/500 and (auto) ISO 1250. With my M10 this image would normally be significantly sharper than it was with my M11-P. Am I just being too critical?

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[wizard]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb brickftl:

Am I just being too critical?

I find that shot pretty darn sharp, even when zooming in a lot. Look at the small icons on the subject's T-shirt and at the Triathlon script, all tack sharp.

 

vor 11 Minuten schrieb brickftl:

With my M10 this image would normally be significantly sharper

Hard to believe, at least for me. Perhaps there is some difference in post processing or jpeg settings leading to a seemingly sharper result? Objectively speaking, the sharpness of your shot is in my view hard to fault.

[brickftl]

I re-looked at the images I shot with my M10, and I think the problem I'm seeing with M11-P is simply because the farmer's market where I shot went to a shadier location plus I began shooting at 1/500 which upped the ISO significantly resulting in less sharp images. 

I appreciate everyone weighing in, and think I just need to adjust how I'm shooting, and also my expectations when shooting high(er) ISO images. 

Really, the M11-P is a lovely camera with improvements over the M10, so I'm going to hold on to it and use it much more to be able to become auto pilot when using it.

 

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[newtoleica]

2 hours ago, brickftl said:

My challenge has been that I'm primarily a street shooter, often shooting moving people

Me too. Blur is part of the aesthetics.... see my website.

 

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[brickftl]

30 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

 

nice work, we have similar taste/approach to street work. I've only been using a rangefinder since February. Here's a link to photos, many of which are my b/w street photos.

https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/Leica-rangefinder-photos

 

[newtoleica]

4 hours ago, brickftl said:

nice work, we have similar taste/approach to street work. I've only been using a rangefinder since February. Here's a link to photos, many of which are my b/w street photos.

https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/Leica-rangefinder-photos

 

Nice shots. Yes, similar aesthetic. The M is great for this kind of work. It makes you concentrate and anticipate.