Monochrom or Silver Efex?

[P1505]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi.

Ive decided, as I truly cannot be bothered editing colours any more, to move to Monochrom. The question I have is are the Monochrom sensors truly that much better than a black and white conversion (I print up to A1) and if it is how much ability to edit will I get with Silver Efex Pro?

Im tempted to get the Q2M to sit alongside my M10. I LOVE colour but have recently decided to simplify photography further and I think colour needs to go (but I cannot sell my beloved M10).

Did anyone miss colour, or do you just accept you shoot in greyscale now? I set my Canon and M10 to shoot black and white JPEG but I need the full uncompressed data and I wonder if the difference is noticeable.

Im not sure what I’m asking - I think I’m about to have a big photographic shift and I’m over thinking it.

[Dr. G]

There are subtle differences in the resulting images.  The advantages you'll have are cleaner high ISO performance and your images will have a higher effective resolution as compared to a color camera because there is no Bayer filter layer over the sensor.  I had the Q2M and loved it.  

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[BWColor]

Here is the M11M at ISO 10000 (on bed) and a candid from the hip at 12500 & resolution approximates that of my Hasselblad X2D:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited July 29 by BWColor

[goodbokeh]

43 minutes ago, P1505 said:

Hi.

Ive decided, as I truly cannot be bothered editing colours any more, to move to Monochrom. The question I have is are the Monochrom sensors truly that much better than a black and white conversion (I print up to A1) and if it is how much ability to edit will I get with Silver Efex Pro?

Im tempted to get the Q2M to sit alongside my M10. I LOVE colour but have recently decided to simplify photography further and I think colour needs to go (but I cannot sell my beloved M10).

Did anyone miss colour, or do you just accept you shoot in greyscale now? I set my Canon and M10 to shoot black and white JPEG but I need the full uncompressed data and I wonder if the difference is noticeable.

Im not sure what I’m asking - I think I’m about to have a big photographic shift and I’m over thinking it.

I use Silver Efex with my M10M. My favorite profile is "More Silver" but I use many of the other profiles too. Make sure that the Q2M file is seen as a RGB color file in the Image Mode of Photoshop, not Grayscale, before launching the Nik program or it will be grayed out.

I use my M10M as an occasional camera, color is still my main medium. But I really appreciate the clear focus it gives me when I do use it. I would judge the overall image quality of the M10M with the Voigtlander 50/2.0 Lanthar on par with my M11-P with 50/2 APO Summicron. For your Q2M the sensor will out resolve its long in the tooth 28/1.7 lens but will still be an impressive file. Hey Jim Kasson is impressed with the Q2M, what more can be said than that?

[250swb]

For colour files from your M10 use SilverEfex, you have far more control than a Monochrom file because you can use the colour channels to maximum effect. You can achieve the complete monochrome vision experience by just imagining the photo you want to make in B&W, like everybody has always done since the dawn of photography. And you get to keep your M10 for when you want colour!

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

 You can achieve the complete monochrome vision experience by just imagining the photo you want to make in B&W, like everybody has always done since the dawn of photography. 

Except that instant, and simultaneous, ability to shoot in either black/white or color, using the same camera in hand, didn’t exist at the dawn of photography. Again, it’s about available choices, not about the ability to visualize a pic in B&W.  Surely you must get the distinction, which at least some of us care about.

Jeff

[250swb]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Except that instant, and simultaneous, ability to shoot in either black/white or color, using the same camera in hand, didn’t exist at the dawn of photography. Again, it’s about available choices, not about the ability to visualize a pic in B&W.  Surely you must get the distinction, which at least some of us care about.

Jeff

I'm not sure what you are getting at but why should I not care? You have to piggy back a JPEG to get a B&W photo with an M10 and the OV is permanently stuck in colour mode. Are you saying you've got to have a Monochrom just to get a B&W .dng file or you've got to constantly chimp an M10 just to see a B&W image on the LCD? Seems like both are just a way to gain reassurance that you've succeeded in capturing an image in B&W, or you could just be rational and imaginative and deal with 'available choices' later when post processing a colour file into B&W. 

I think your 'available choices' are just an example of extrospection and 'I want to see it now!' in needing to validate an image created by the camera, which for many people who own a camera is no choice at all because that is as far as they go, no matter how expensive their camera they remain snap shooters. I'd rather take the approach of promoting introspection and imagining the final image, maybe even at leisure much later after having time to think about it. Which is why I said using Silver Efex with a colour file offers the widest range of technical possibilities for B&W, and with imagination can offer far more possibilities for the image. That is how 'available choices' are increased exponentially over your need to have the camera serve up a ready made image on the spot. 

 

[M Street Photographer]

 

Are you sure that it is not just a phase that you now want to photograph in black and white?

Many years ago I also had a phase where I converted most of my color photos to black and white using Silvereffex. Before you buy a monochrome camera, I would first take advantage of the possibilities of your M 10. First of all, use the M10 to set the JPEG to black and white high contrast, as a backup you still have the RAW. Why not take photos in this mode for a few months and learn to see black and white with your eyes before you buy a monochrome camera. Many years ago I borrowed an M9 monochrome for 4 days and while taking photos I realized that in some situations I would have preferred the color camera.

We also have the option of converting RAW images into black and white quickly and easily with Silvereffex. To speed up your workflow, you can use the existing presets or create your own over time, making the conversion essentially a one-click process. I understand that color editing is too complicated for him, what's the harm in using the Nik package with color? The individual modules for color also enable quick and convenient editing of color images.In the Nik software programs, there are hundreds of presets that are easy to use for color editing. Perhaps you should download the Nik package from DXO to try it out and work with it for a while so that you retain your flexibility for color and black and white.

Postscript: I forgot to mention that I decided against the M9 monochrome and will continue to convert the photos to black and white with Silvereffex.

I also use the high contrast black and white JPEG on my m10r and Q3 and am very happy with it in most cases. To be on the safe side, I always shoot RAW.

 

 

Edited July 30 by M Street Photographer

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, 250swb said:

I'm not sure what you are getting at but why should I not care? You have to piggy back a JPEG to get a B&W photo with an M10 and the OV is permanently stuck in colour mode. Are you saying you've got to have a Monochrom just to get a B&W .dng file or you've got to constantly chimp an M10 just to see a B&W image on the LCD? Seems like both are just a way to gain reassurance that you've succeeded in capturing an image in B&W, or you could just be rational and imaginative and deal with 'available choices' later when post processing a colour file into B&W. 

I think your 'available choices' are just an example of extrospection and 'I want to see it now!' in needing to validate an image created by the camera, which for many people who own a camera is no choice at all because that is as far as they go, no matter how expensive their camera they remain snap shooters. I'd rather take the approach of promoting introspection and imagining the final image, maybe even at leisure much later after having time to think about it. Which is why I said using Silver Efex with a colour file offers the widest range of technical possibilities for B&W, and with imagination can offer far more possibilities for the image. That is how 'available choices' are increased exponentially over your need to have the camera serve up a ready made image on the spot. 

 

Wow, you really don’t get my simple point at all.  Absolutely NONE of the first or second paragraphs apply to me, or have anything to do with my comment or process.  It also doesn’t matter to me if you agree, or care; just that you merely comprehend the concept.

Once again. I have NO problem imagining a scene… seeing… in B&W… I’ve been doing that since 1974.  With digital I NEVER shoot JPEG. I shoot DNG only, always with clear intent, at time of shooting, to make a color pic or a B/W pic. The VF, like the world, remains in color. I rarely chimp, typically for exposure in tricky light. With me so far?  Pretty simple, I think.

My ONLY point is that I like that a Monochrom camera, just like B&W film, does not offer me the option or the choice (PP “tricks” aside), to shoot color.  That’s all. As a result, I’m not distracted by considering color pics when I’m walking about searching for a suitable scene. I can concentrate better on B&W potential pics, with less distraction or temptation. It’s as simple as that for me. 

I know some who share the sentiment, and others who don’t. Doesn’t bother me one way or the other; their approach is their approach.  I only brought it up since you continue to generalize, and seemingly miss the concept that attracts people like me to Monochroms…for the B&W mindset that it can provide.

Jeff

Edited July 30 by Jeff S

[250swb]

7 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Wow, you really don’t get my simple point at all.  Absolutely NONE of the first or second paragraphs apply to me, or have anything to do with my comment or process.  It also doesn’t matter to me if you agree, or care; just that you merely comprehend the concept.

Once again. I have NO problem imagining a scene… seeing… in B&W… I’ve been doing that since 1974.  With digital I NEVER shoot JPEG. I shoot DNG only, always with clear intent, at time of shooting, to make a color pic or a B/W pic. The VF, like the world, remains in color. I rarely chimp, typically for exposure in tricky light. With me so far?  Pretty simple, I think.

My ONLY point is that I like that a Monochrom camera, just like B&W film, does not offer me the option or the choice (PP “tricks” aside), to shoot color.  That’s all. As a result, I’m not distracted by considering color pics when I’m walking about searching for a suitable scene. I can concentrate better on B&W potential pics, with less distraction or temptation. It’s as simple as that for me. 

I know some who share the sentiment, and others who don’t. Doesn’t bother me one way or the other; their approach is their approach.  I only brought it up since you continue to generalize, and seemingly miss the concept that attracts people like me to Monochroms…for the B&W mindset that it can provide.

Jeff

😆

I'll add to my emote (above) and say if you can't see photography is about photographing what you want to photograph and not just being a camera owner and accepting what the camera see's you aren't a photographer.

Edited July 30 by 250swb

[Jeff S]

18 minutes ago, 250swb said:

😆

Some get the point…

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2022/08/same-old-problems.html

Jeff

[250swb]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Some get the point…

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2022/08/same-old-problems.html

Jeff

It gets worse, you drag other people into your free for all idea. It's simpler than that, before going out the front door decide if you want to make B&W images or colour images. 

[Jeff S]

23 minutes ago, 250swb said:

It gets worse, you drag other people into your free for all idea. It's simpler than that, before going out the front door decide if you want to make B&W images or colour images. 

No, silly.  He’s written about this many times before…and since.  Easy to search his articles on the topic. I merely commented in this particular one and he happened to like my chosen wording to describe what he experiences. And each time he writes about it, he gets people just like you who don’t get it; and still others that feel the same way as he.  

The ability to process or accept multiple and different opinions and approaches from one’s own is a component of both empathy and intelligence.

Jeff

[M Street Photographer]

I have the feeling you are moving considerably away from the question.

If I understand correctly, it is not about the philosophy of black and white or color photography. It's about the question of a software solution or a hardware solution and whether the hardware solution is significantly better than the software solution.

Steve Huff once made a comparison between the M9 and the M9 monochrome and came to the conclusion that the black and white converted photos of the M9 from a format of A2 and larger only show negligible differences when placed next to each other, and only when they are next to each other. In his opinion, the difference was 3 to 5%. The converted color photo, viewed on its own, showed no negative abnormalities.

 

Edited July 30 by M Street Photographer

[250swb]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

 

The ability to process or accept multiple and different opinions and approaches from one’s own is a component of both empathy and intelligence.

Jeff

It's nothing at all to do with empathy and intelligence or 'not getting it', you just can't switch your 'mindset' off from seeing colour images so you need the crutch of a monochrome camera. Fine, but don't preach that your disability is everybody else's problem.

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

It's nothing at all to do with empathy and intelligence or 'not getting it', you just can't switch your 'mindset' off from seeing colour images so you need the crutch of a monochrome camera. Fine, but don't preach that your disability is everybody else's problem.

You’re the only one preaching about a so called “problem.” Leica was smart enough to build a business model that recognizes different approaches suit different people.  Logic would say that screen-less cameras are unnecessary; just ignore or cover up the screen. Yet they sell. Or that still photography shooters could merely turn off the video function on their M240’s and be satisfied. Yet some wanted more simplicity built in.
 

There’s a difference between a disability and a preference. I shot B&W pics all day, for years, with my color digital cameras, using a B&W mindset.  But I get greater satisfaction, and a somewhat better mindset, when I use a camera with a monochrome sensor.  That’s all.

You don’t have to understand it; I accept your differences. But your protests are amusing nonetheless.

Jeff

[M Street Photographer]

Even at the risk of repeating myself, I would ask both of you to answer the OP's question about whether a black and white sensor is significantly better than the photo converted using software. That would be more useful for him than airing their dispute here in public. They both seem competent to me.

[Jeff S]

45 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said:

Even at the risk of repeating myself, I would ask both of you to answer the OP's question about whether a black and white sensor is significantly better than the photo converted using software. That would be more useful for him than airing their dispute here in public. They both seem competent to me.

I can make terrific, or mediocre, pics and prints with either one.  Since I don’t make huge prints, and don’t shoot at extreme ISO’s, some of the potential benefits of a Monochrom are not meaningful for me. 
 

This has been discussed in many other threads, which the OP might also benefit from searching.  For me it’s more about mindset… and workflow, e.g., use of colored lens filters vs using color channels in PP, etc.

Jeff

[M Street Photographer]

It is always annoying and disappointing when the To doesn't respond after his initial post. Many users are happy to help. Since this is not the first time this has happened, I'm slowly losing the desire to help.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear