Anyone still buying into/investing in the S system at this point?

[davidmknoble]

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@Winedemonium, since you mentioned the higher ISO and shutter speeds, the S007 will work well for you because the sensor has the same pixel size (37mp) and so you can get the higher shutter speeds without worrying about camera shake (as it seems like you use this without a tripod).  The S3 has even higher ISO, but double the mega pixels and much easier to have camera shake in your images.  It is a good time to buy S lenses!

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[Stef63]

On topic : I only recently entered the S ecosystem after first picking up some (now relatively affordable) S lenses like the 100 and 120 to use on my SL2. I was blown away by their quality and rendering, which led me to add a nice S3 to complement them (and a few other S lenses 😇)

My photography journey started 50 years ago with SLRs and later DSLRs before transitioning to rangefinders. Along the way, I became a bit of a “lens addict” and eventually added an SL2 to fully enjoy Leica’s longer R lenses among others.

Long story short, I now use three platforms:

• Rangefinder (M11 & M10M) – My go-to for manual lens photography and travel.

• Mirrorless (SL2) – The most flexible body I own, handling all my lenses regardless of mount or brand. 

• Medium format DSLR (S3) – Bringing back that classic SLR/DSLR shooting experience I’ve always loved and opening the world of medium format. 

I’m very happy with the S3, as it gives me back the feel of traditional SLR photography. Meanwhile, my M11 and M10M remain my favorite lightweight travel companions, and the SL2 lets me explore vintage gems—Takumars, R lenses, classic Canons, and more.

If I had to choose the direction the S line should take—considering my setup and of there would be a future for the S—it would be:

• No mirrorless – I want to keep one true through-the-lens view camera line.

• IBIS – My favorite feature on the SL2.

• Full compatibility with existing S lenses.

• SL/M-style menu – I know, I know… but it would make switching between systems much easier.

That’s it. Nothing more.

[Tirpitz666]

I highly doubt that the rumored S4 could be anything but a mirrorless design, the advantages in terms of AF coverage and precision are just too many, especially when you enter into high-MP + extreme shallow DOF territory.

While the S line AF is usually very precise, it has two major flaws in my opinion:

- there is no AF-microadjustment option, that sometime could come handy to fix any F/B focus issues

- with just a central AF point, at large apertures when you focus and recompose at close distances you will introduce a systematic focus error, and Leica never developed a "True Focus"-like technology like Hasselblad did on their newer reflex bodies just to address this.

[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, Tirpitz666 said:

I highly doubt that the rumored S4 could be anything but a mirrorless design, the advantages in terms of AF coverage and precision are just too many, especially when you enter into high-MP + extreme shallow DOF territory.

While the S line AF is usually very precise, it has two major flaws in my opinion:

- there is no AF-microadjustment option, that sometime could come handy to fix any F/B focus issues

- with just a central AF point, at large apertures when you focus and recompose at close distances you will introduce a systematic focus error, and Leica never developed a "True Focus"-like technology like Hasselblad did on their newer reflex bodies just to address this.

According to Leica, the reason the S does not have a microadjustment feature is that it does not need it. As far as I remember, they said that as opposed to other camera makers, the S system was not relying on a tolerance range, but rather measuring and coding each individual lens and body. So while a typical SLR might have an ideal tolerance spec for both camera and lens, and the manufacturing goal was to keep both lens and body in that window in order to achieve proper focus, what Leica did was measure each body and lens individually with high precision and then encode that information into the lens and body, so that when the lens is mounted, the lens and body would communicate their actual measurements to each other so that the focus was accurate. In my experience this did work. The problem was not usually that a lens or body was out of spec and causing a consistent back or front focus. The problem was that the AF sensor they used was so large that it was quite difficult to be certain what specific thing within that sensor would be chosen as the focal point. A lot of users think that the crosshairs is what is being focused on, but it is actually the entire area within the circle. If everything in that circle is equidistant and with decent contrast, it is quite rare that the S bodies misfocus.

I agree about the True Focus though...that would be nice. But pretty sure Hasselblad patented that? Either way, it will all kind of be a moot point in a potential S4, as it seems almost impossible that it will be anything other than a mirrorless camera.

[Tirpitz666]

Yes, I think for the first point things are as you say, I was thinking about only super-tight tolerances to overcome the issue banking on "Leica manufacturing prowess", but probably they did something even better (and smarter on paper), admittedly so far did not experience any visibile F/B issue with any lenses I've tried, so it apparently works well 🙂.

Something akin to True Focus (which for sure is patented) would have been advisable in the past, but as said, now the issue will be completely superseeded.

Edited February 18 by Tirpitz666

[HuntingSand]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Stef63:

 

On topic : I only recently entered the S ecosystem after first picking up some (now relatively affordable) S lenses like the 100 and 120 to use on my SL2. I was blown away by their quality and rendering, which led me to add a nice S3 to complement them (and a few other S lenses 😇)

My photography journey started 50 years ago with SLRs and later DSLRs before transitioning to rangefinders. Along the way, I became a bit of a “lens addict” and eventually added an SL2 to fully enjoy Leica’s longer R lenses among others.

Good morning. My name is Thomas, and I am a lens addict, too.
Probably everyone here is... 😛

That 120 is indeed tasty, it was my first lens for the S system. And I picked up a SL2 recently as well. Not sure what I'm going to do with it, but the opportunity was too hard to pass up.

[davidmknoble]

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@Stuart Richardson, I think the other issue that guided the S lenses / body system was the manual focusing on the lenses instead of fly-by-wire, which I really like.  I assume it will not be the case with a mirrorless system, but the mechanical coupling is nice and I like it for my work.

@HuntingSand, the 120mm is such a stellar lens, but alas, it will not take a 100mm filter system because the barrel goes back in the lens and out past the front.  So, I cannot use it on the coast, but it does make a nice portrait lens and macro system.

[Stef63]

6 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

@HuntingSand, the 120mm is such a stellar lens, but alas, it will not take a 100mm filter system because the barrel goes back in the lens and out past the front.  So, I cannot use it on the coast, but it does make a nice portrait lens and macro system.

David, I would like to quote the other David (Farkas) from Red Dot Forum in his  Definitive Guide to Leica S Lenses :

Quote

One final cautionary note is that the 120mm APO-Macro has a somewhat quirky filter design. First, in addition to the correct 72mm filter threading on the front of the lens, there is also an 82mm filter thread on the outer barrel. Because the lens is not internal focusing, the inner barrel moves inside the wider outer part at infinity and past it for closer focus. This causes two issues. If you want to use a 4″ filter holder, you will need to add a spacer ring in order to achieve infinity focus. I typically take a cheap no-name 72mm filter and knock out the glass…

 

Edited February 24 by Stef63

[davidmknoble]

Thanks @Stef63.  David Farkas is actually the person that taught me first about the 100mm filter systems - and sold me my first S camera!  The spacer works, but I have had too many filters and multiple items screwed on the front of lenses get stuck because tightening the outer one is leverage for the middle one.

It's just not something I'm willing to try.  

I use the 180mm or the 100mm as needed for filters and use the 120mm when I dont need a filter system, but simple screw on polarizers or the like.

Thanks for digging this up!!

David.

[Eclectic Man]

Curious thing:  On the uk.leica-camera.uk web site at least, if you select to go though the photography styles link, for Landscape, you are recommended ... the Leica S3!

https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/photography/nature-landscape-photography

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited February 28 by Eclectic Man

[davidmknoble]

I think the S3 is till relevant for landscape photography and I still see good used copies available for good prices.  I kept my S007 so I don’t need another body.  This is an image I took a few months ago on the S3.

 

[erlingmm]

Sold my S007 a few years ago, regretted it ever since. Just got hold of a body at a decent price, plus the 100mm (actually my own that I sold to another user!), really looking forward to use this combo again!

[Pieter12]

Everyone is so fixated on AF performance. Get real, the big S cameras are not ideal for action photography--learn to focus. AF is a convenience to get into the ballpark and finessed from there especially given the wonderful, bright OVF. IBIS would be quite a feat if it could be accomplished while keeping the OVF, but I kind of think is would be one or the other, not both. The S is a niche camera, it serves a specific purpose. The S4 will most likely be a departure from its predecessors if it materializes at all. More like an SL on steroids.

[irenedp]

Pieter, i find it rather difficult focusing with the OVF. Actually with the S2 I use Autofocus to avoid missing shots, and with the 3, i try whenever I need fine focusing, to use the 100% magnification and focus peaking in liveview. The Phase is easier and more precise because it allows a 500% zoom.  I reckon that an EVF in a potential S4 -assuming there will be one- would allow for zoom and focusing aids. if the EVf is good enough that would be a big advance, at least for me. One of the very few things I miss from the GFX 100 was its manual focusing aids -mine tended to hunt a lot on autofocus under difficult light conditions-.  

[Pieter12]

2 hours ago, irenedp said:

Pieter, i find it rather difficult focusing with the OVF. Actually with the S2 I use Autofocus to avoid missing shots, and with the 3, i try whenever I need fine focusing, to use the 100% magnification and focus peaking in liveview. The Phase is easier and more precise because it allows a 500% zoom.  I reckon that an EVF in a potential S4 -assuming there will be one- would allow for zoom and focusing aids. if the EVf is good enough that would be a big advance, at least for me. One of the very few things I miss from the GFX 100 was its manual focusing aids -mine tended to hunt a lot on autofocus under difficult light conditions-.  

What did you do before autofocus?

[irenedp]

of course i used and use manual focus. with the M9 and now the M9 monochrom I have no problem focusing, although at the beginning i got a magnifier that could be attached to the viewer. The old MS, or my Bronica, or the F4, and my older cameras have an easy way to know when the image is in focus, because two images converge into oneon one way or other. It is much harder with the S, to be honest. 

I missed a lot of shots when I started with the S2. Something that seemed reasonably clear in the OVF was often times slightly blurred. And it wasn’t due to a low shutter speed. I missed focus. Close, but slightly off.  The S3 has the advantage of the focusing aids, so you can nail it with a tripod and  liveview. 

[Tirpitz666]

Nailing focus with large aperture lenses on a large sensor is and will always be a challenge, for which to me a precise AF is indispensable in somewhat dynamic contexts like for example street or event photography (if one wants to do shoot them with a S in the first place of course, but I honestly don't see it as a "studio only" camera).

When MF was the only option, there was a lot of "F8 and be there", so slight misfocussing was much less of an issue, but if someone wants to shoot wide open for artistic purposes or because the light just doesn't allow anything different, nailing precise focus manually on a large sensor will inevitably lead to some soft shots, and with the aging eyes of most of us there, things are not going to get better I'm afraid, so any focus aid or even more precise AF would be more than welcome for me.

[John McMaster]

9 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

What did you do before autofocus?

Because the focus screens were designed for manual focussing, my F2/Hasselblad/Sheet film screens were all easier to manual focus than the S.....

john

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[Pieter12]

8 hours ago, Tirpitz666 said:

Nailing focus with large aperture lenses on a large sensor is and will always be a challenge, for which to me a precise AF is indispensable in somewhat dynamic contexts like for example street or event photography (if one wants to do shoot them with a S in the first place of course, but I honestly don't see it as a "studio only" camera).

When MF was the only option, there was a lot of "F8 and be there", so slight misfocussing was much less of an issue, but if someone wants to shoot wide open for artistic purposes or because the light just doesn't allow anything different, nailing precise focus manually on a large sensor will inevitably lead to some soft shots, and with the aging eyes of most of us there, things are not going to get better I'm afraid, so any focus aid or even more precise AF would be more than welcome for me.

My Rollei 6008i lenses are 2.8 and a bit longer than the Leicas. I have no problem focusing, even with a prism finder that does not allow a magnifier like the WLF. I have corrected the eyepiece for my vision and only miss focus when I don't take the time. These big cameras are not designed for grab shots and require one to slow down a bit and be careful.

Plus, I believe there is a microprism screen available for the S that would help with MF for those who have problems with the standard one..

[tom0511]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Pieter12:

My Rollei 6008i lenses are 2.8 and a bit longer than the Leicas. I have no problem focusing, even with a prism finder that does not allow a magnifier like the WLF. I have corrected the eyepiece for my vision and only miss focus when I don't take the time. These big cameras are not designed for grab shots and require one to slow down a bit and be careful.

Plus, I believe there is a microprism screen available for the S that would help with MF for those who have problems with the standard one..

Peter, I do not doubt your experience. However my experiences are different. It has nothing to do with slowing down, personally I am not able to really accurate focus manual with a high resolution digital camera at wider f-stops without magnification or focus peaking. Maybe possible with film.

In general I prefer Leica S lenses over hassy xcd lenses, but the slightest focus inaccuracies destroy a lot of IQ, at least if you like shooting at wider apertures.

Thats why, right now, I feel much better using the x2d knowing I can nail focus (most of the times). SO-for me-a camera body allowing more precise AF for S-lenses would be great.