90mm f4 Elmar varients on Bellows II and focal depth / 3 Element questions

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Everybody,

In Jim Lager's "Leica Illustrated Guide II" there is a photo of an undated LTM 3 element 90mm f4 Elmar with a "00" on a IIIg on page 60.

On page 62 there is a photo of a long focus (Not telephoto.) LTM 90mm f2.8 Elmarit 1692783 with a "00" dated 1959 also on a IIIg.

1959 is the earliest year that I have seen the engraving of: The last whole millimeter of the ACTUAL focal length of a lens + the 1/10th millimeter of the ACTUAL focal length of the lens: WITHOUT the appropriate decimal point: Engraved at a right angle to the other numbers on the lens barrel.

1692783 is consistent with the year 1959 in Gianni Rogliatti's "Leica - Leica & Leicaflex Lenses". He also wrote that 760 LTM 90mm f2.8 Elmarit lenses were made in 1959.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited July 17, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

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[kdt]

Are they all compatible with OUAGO or are the LTM 3 element 90's an issue?

Edited July 17, 2024 by kdt

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello kdt,

Generally (But not always.) it is the older lenses that are not always compatible with some later equipment.

I have to re-read this Thread & do some looking.

I'll be back.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

On 7/14/2024 at 5:01 AM, UliWer said:

I think the reason for the incompatibility of older lens heads with the OUAGO is the lens head's flange:

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The flanges of the two older lenses (left 165.xxx and middle 962.000) are "higher" than for the 3-element's head (right) not leaving enough space for the head to screw into the OUAGO. So their position is too much protruded to reach infinity. 

Hello Everybody,

If we look at UliWer"s very nice photo we can see that the 33 millimeter threads, which is where the lens heads attach to the OUAGO/16467, are all about the same distance from the front of each lens head. They should all fit in the 16467/OUAGO.  Unless there is some type of mechanical interference.

Lens heads are NOT interchangeable among various focusing barrels activating the rangefinder because:

Focusing mounts are calibrated to 1/10th of a millimeter to match the individual lens head they are being used with more precisely. 

Also: There may be physical differences in manufacture at different time periods which is also why certain serial number ranges of certain lenses have to be returned to the factory for adjustment before they can be used with certain equipment.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited July 17, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[jankap]

Am 14.7.2024 um 17:24 schrieb UliWer:

The LTM-to-M-adapter from Leitz/Leica is supposed to be 1mm thick - if you measure it with a caliper it is less thick. Being screwed onto an LTM lens it will substitute the 1 mm which the lens needs. 

The flange-to-film distance of a Leica LTM is 28.8mm, for a Leica M it is 27.8mm. 

My LTM Elmar 9 cm f/4.0 with the number 1,382,xxx is of 1956. The lens head has a thread of 33mm (measured 32.8mm).

Its focussing helicoid has a length - measured with a caliper - of 52.8mm. From the lens head mount to the LTM camera mouth and set at infinity.

Edited July 17, 2024 by jankap

[UliWer]

Well, I‘ll try again:

kdt found out that lens heads for older versions of the 9cm Elmar don‘t focus to infinity with the OUAGO/16467. This is true and was already mentioned in the Leitz catalogue from 1961 (see the link in #5 to luigi‘s posting). The catalogue says that items with a serial number from 1 572 401 onwards may be used without restriction on the 16467, lenses between serial numbers 697 901 and 1 572 400 could be accustomed to focus to infinity by Leitz whilst lenses with lower serial numbers might be used but would not focus to infinity (which means that Leitz would not accustom them).

So what is the reason for these differences?

It seems that all 90mm Elmars - pre and post war, LTM and M-mount, even the later 3-elements version - have the same focal length of 90mm exactly: you either find „90“ handwritten or scratched into the shaft or you find „00“ - standing for 90mm exactly - engraved on the outside next to the mark „m“ for „meter“ on the scale for focussing. (If anybody has ever seen a 90mm Elmar with different marks it would be very interesting to know). So differences in actual focal length do not seem to be the reasons that the older version doesn‘t reach infinity with the OUAGO/16467.

Now even if it is true that one needs to know the exact measurements of the lenses optical design to localize the exact point from where to measure the focal length (as 01av has explained in #8 and #17) there are some evident differences between the earlier and later lenses if you just look at the outside. 

kdt found out by measurement that the shaft of the newer version is considerably longer than for the older ones. This seems to be strange as the fact that a lens can be focussed but won‘t go to infinity indicates that the position of the optical system is too far ahead from the film/sensor plane. You would guess that it would be too far ahead with a longer shaft but not with a shorter one…

Though when you look at the different lens heads you‘ll easily notice the reason for the longer shaft of later lenses as well as for the fact that the older lens heads won‘t focus to infinity with the OUAGO/16467: the first lens element of the older lens head is fixed immediately behind the small rim on the front. The rear element does not protrude further than the thread to fix the lens on the shaft. So the whole older lens head is on top of the shaft. The new lens lead‘s first element is recessed deeply below the plane of the filter thread, the rear element is positioned below the thread to fix it on the shaft, so the optical system is partly in the shaft and not above it. On the OUAGO/16467 the older lens heads also „sit“ on top of the device: the head’s flange doesn‘t allow the optical system to enter into the device, whilst the newer lens head will partly enter the device. So the old lens head is too far ahead to focus to infinity with the OUAGO/16467, the new lens head reaches a deeper position in the OUAGO/16467 to allow it to focus to infinity.

I do not know what Leitz did when they accustomed older lens heads to work with the OUAGO/16467 up to infinity. Perhaps someone has a lens head which was altered and can show it here. 

 

[kdt]

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48 minutes ago, UliWer said:

* The 90mm f4 LTM lens in question that I have has pencil markings on the first light baffle in the standard focus mount. "7998" which refers to the last four numbers of the serial# for this lens. Also "90 CA K" . 90 referring to the focal length. "CA K" is a question for me?

 

Well, I‘ll try again:

kdt found out that lens heads for older versions of the 9cm Elmar don‘t focus to infinity with the OUAGO/16467. This is true and was already mentioned in the Leitz catalogue from 1961 (see the link in #5 to luigi‘s posting). The catalogue says that items with a serial number from 1 572 401 onwards may be used without restriction on the 16467, lenses between serial numbers 697 901 and 1 572 400 could be accustomed to focus to infinity by Leitz whilst lenses with lower serial numbers might be used but would not focus to infinity (which means that Leitz would not accustom them).

So what is the reason for these differences?

It seems that all 90mm Elmars - pre and post war, LTM and M-mount, even the later 3-elements version - have the same focal length of 90mm exactly: you either find „90“ handwritten or scratched into the shaft or you find „00“ - standing for 90mm exactly - engraved on the outside next to the mark „m“ for „meter“ on the scale for focussing. (If anybody has ever seen a 90mm Elmar with different marks it would be very interesting to know). So differences in actual focal length do not seem to be the reasons that the older version doesn‘t reach infinity with the OUAGO/16467.

Now even if it is true that one needs to know the exact measurements of the lenses optical design to localize the exact point from where to measure the focal length (as 01av has explained in #8 and #17) there are some evident differences between the earlier and later lenses if you just look at the outside. 

kdt found out by measurement that the shaft of the newer version is considerably longer than for the older ones. This seems to be strange as the fact that a lens can be focussed but won‘t go to infinity indicates that the position of the optical system is too far ahead from the film/sensor plane. You would guess that it would be too far ahead with a longer shaft but not with a shorter one…

Though when you look at the different lens heads you‘ll easily notice the reason for the longer shaft of later lenses as well as for the fact that the older lens heads won‘t focus to infinity with the OUAGO/16467: the first lens element of the older lens head is fixed immediately behind the small rim on the front. The rear element does not protrude further than the thread to fix the lens on the shaft. So the whole older lens head is on top of the shaft. The new lens lead‘s first element is recessed deeply below the plane of the filter thread, the rear element is positioned below the thread to fix it on the shaft, so the optical system is partly in the shaft and not above it. On the OUAGO/16467 the older lens heads also „sit“ on top of the device: the head’s flange doesn‘t allow the optical system to enter into the device, whilst the newer lens head will partly enter the device. So the old lens head is too far ahead to focus to infinity with the OUAGO/16467, the new lens head reaches a deeper position in the OUAGO/16467 to allow it to focus to infinity.

I do not know what Leitz did when they accustomed older lens heads to work with the OUAGO/16467 up to infinity. Perhaps someone has a lens head which was altered and can show it here. 

 

 

 

 

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Edited July 17, 2024 by kdt

[kdt]

Thanks to everyone that replied to this post . I enjoy using these old lenses even though they can be a bit difficult at times.

Hope to see a photo of someones early lens that has been modified to work with OUAGO at infinity

I will be looking out for a nice 3 element 90mm f4 Elmar to add to my collection...  .

 

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Edited July 18, 2024 by kdt

[jankap]

Some time ago I have bought an Elmar 135mm f/4 lens head. To use it on Sony or L-mount I made an R-mount lens of it.

From the R-mount to the lens head I needed the following adapters:

14167 - 16464k - and 16472k, then comes a shim of around 0.5mm.

Herewith, I focus the lens at infinity at the end of the rotation.

[kdt]

3 hours ago, jankap said:

Some time ago I have bought an Elmar 135mm f/4 lens head. To use it on Sony or L-mount I made an R-mount lens of it.

From the R-mount to the lens head I needed the following adapters:

14167 - 16464k - and 16472k, then comes a shim of around 0.5mm.

Herewith, I focus the lens at infinity at the end of the rotation.

My camera is L mount and I use the Leica 14167 adapter as well (Leica M Visoflex to Leica R). I have adapted a few M Visoflex lenses to R.  I also have the 16464k and 16472k and use those with a 135mm Hektor. The 16472k and 16471j also work with the bellows II when greater extension is needed.

Some R to L adapters are made slightly short to ensure all lenses will focus to infinity but over shoot it a little bit. There are a few adapters that are close to the correct length like the Urth and Novaflex R to L adapters.

Mirrorless cameras and these old adapters have allowed us to easily experiment with these great old optics once again.

Edited July 18, 2024 by kdt