Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[SrMi]

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16 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Or at least have both as options. I am sure some people really like the new sleep function. I’d be happy to disable it.

Gordon

The availability of sleep-by-button-press functionality was never an issue.

The issue is that we do not see whether the camera has gone to sleep (by itself or by button press) or whether the camera is off.

IMO, the only issue is that images can be lost if you change the battery and the camera is not turned off. Some may consider that it works as intended, as most electronic devices may lose data when the power is removed abruptly,

[Olaf_ZG]

Slowly the discussion is turning into an assumption that it is a user error. Leica’s fanbase is really really hardcore.

I never ever had any brand losing images, no matter what I did. I never ever had any misfunctioning of cards (always use sandisk) with any brand.

Leica isn’t able to fix the m11, and the SL3 shows the worst problem what can happen to a photographer: losing images.

It didn’t happen on the SL2, s or just SL. It happens on the SL3. It aint a user error. It is a Leica error. Full stop.

And they keep on selling, so it shows they don’t care about the togs customers at all. Imagine losing part of your wedding coverage. Shame on Leica.

And for the hardcore fans. Just buy the latest. Leica does need your funds if they want to survive…

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I would not expect beta testers to use their beta cameras in a high pressure pro shooting environment. Who is going to risk using a beta test camera for a wedding or other one-off event: photo-journalism, war photography, sports, fashion shoots…… Yet that is just the sort of occasion when this problem shows up. I suspect most beta testers are likely to use a test camera for landscapes, studio, product and other low risk, repeatable scenarios.

When I was a working photographer I can promise you I stress tested my cameras prior to first real use. After checking for obvious issues like sensor alignment, I also checked battery life, shooting speeds, different cards, menu set ups etc For days on end. And after that the new model was used alongside my older gear, slowly taking over. It was about a month until a new body was primary at a wedding. I can name 5 or 6 cameras that I managed to find issues with and had to stop or pause using.

My SL601 never made it past day 1. The flash didn’t fire at certain shutter speeds. Blindingly obvious issue. It took three months until Leica sorted that out and eventually I got them going and loved shooting them.

I also went to Tanzania/Uganda last year. Took a Canon R5/R7 kit for the long lenses. Didn’t have time to do specific testing si it’s while I’m there I find that the cameras (especially the R7) will just jump off the focus point for no reason. Had to retire the R7 after three days and hundreds of lost shots. I was and am still, pissed. Partly because I should have done more research but that Canon knew and had done zip to fix it. Haven’t used Canon since.

That’s why I maintain that Leica need to have testers test in ways closer to real world use. I didn’t flaw the SL3. But probably would have if I were still testing properly like I used to.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The availability of sleep-by-button-press functionality was never an issue.

The issue is that we do not see whether the camera has gone to sleep (by itself or by button press) or whether the camera is off.

IMO, the only issue is that images can be lost if you change the battery and the camera is not turned off. Some may consider that it works as intended, as most electronic devices may lose data when the power is removed abruptly,

Under no circumstances should a camera OVERWRITE files without user intervention. Ever. We all get that you can corrupt a card etc. But overwriting files is a no no.

And *personally* the new button is pointless to me. After several months I ONLY turn the camera off. So , *personally* I’d like an option to disable the press to sleep function so the camera always turns off with the button. I already said other may be happy with it. The new way seems to want to solve an issue that didn’t exist. Just Leica and Hasselblad slowly merging into one camera as they copy what ever the other guy does.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

10 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Slowly the discussion is turning into an assumption that it is a user error. Leica’s fanbase is really really hardcore.

I never ever had any brand losing images, no matter what I did. I never ever had any misfunctioning of cards (always use sandisk) with any brand.

Leica isn’t able to fix the m11, and the SL3 shows the worst problem what can happen to a photographer: losing images.

It didn’t happen on the SL2, s or just SL. It happens on the SL3. It aint a user error. It is a Leica error. Full stop.

And they keep on selling, so it shows they don’t care about the togs customers at all. Imagine losing part of your wedding coverage. Shame on Leica.

And for the hardcore fans. Just buy the latest. Leica does need your funds if they want to survive…

Agreed, except that Leica isn’t actually hiding this time. They’ve acknowledged the issue, released a statement and mentioned a workaround. So I’m not against their response for this. I guess even they realise that a reputation can only take so much of a beating.

Weird so much defence when even Leica are going down the route of it not being acceptable or user error.

Gordon

[Olaf_ZG]

3 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Just Leica and Hasselblad slowly merging into one camera as they copy what ever the other guy does.

Gordon

With influencers promoting their gear. I guess it is a sign of times. A trend. But trends are very very quick these days. One moment you rock, the next you are forgotten.

Leica is happy to have an “old” fanbase. They last till they die. The youth won’t be that loyal.

[SrMi]

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6 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Slowly the discussion is turning into an assumption that it is a user error. Leica’s fanbase is really really hardcore.

I would never change the battery on a camera that is not turned off, as I would always assume that it may lose data. I would prefer it if the camera had safeguards that would not happen, but I would never risk it.

This is not about being a Leica fan, as I treat my non-Leica cameras similarly.

9 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

I never ever had any brand losing images, no matter what I did. I never ever had any misfunctioning of cards (always use sandisk) with any brand.

It did not happen to my Leica, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc cameras, either.

This has never happened to most SL3 owners because most change batteries rarely and when the camera is turned off.  I assume the problem is "solved" by checking whether the camera is turned off before replacing the battery.

 

[Olaf_ZG]

@FlashGordonPhotography: google Leica SL3, go to their site and you won’t find a statement, just marketing bla bla, and even a call to enter your email: “never miss a moment”… 

actually people missed them.

Leica made a half statement.

[Olaf_ZG]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I would never change the battery on a camera that is not turned off, as I would always assume that it may lose data. I would prefer it if the camera had safeguards that would not happen, but I would never risk it.

This is not about being a Leica fan, as I treat my non-Leica cameras similarly.

It did not happen to my Leica, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc cameras, either.

This has never happened to most SL3 owners because most change batteries rarely and when the camera is turned off.  I assume the problem is "solved" by checking whether the camera is turned off before replacing the battery.

 

If it isn’t a problem, then why would Leica mention it? The fact that they put out a half warning, means it is serious. 

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Under no circumstances should a camera OVERWRITE files without user intervention. Ever. We all get that you can corrupt a card etc. But overwriting files is a no no.

I am guessing the camera overwrites images because the file information had not been written before the power was removed. Next time the camera starts up, it does not know about the files. This could happen with any electronic device. 

11 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

And *personally* the new button is pointless to me. After several months I ONLY turn the camera off. So , *personally* I’d like an option to disable the press to sleep function so the camera always turns off with the button. I already said other may be happy with it. The new way seems to want to solve an issue that didn’t exist. Just Leica and Hasselblad slowly merging into one camera as they copy what ever the other guy does.

My point is that the availability of "sleep" functionality has nothing to do with the issue discussed.

[Olaf_ZG]

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I would never change the battery on a camera that is not turned off, as I would always assume that it may lose data. I would prefer it if the camera had safeguards that would not happen, but I would never risk it.

 

 

And what if your camera freezes? You won’t take the battery out? Leave it as is and get another one?

If a camera freezes, I expect to loose the last image (or two), but not the disaster the SL3 is doing.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

16 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

1. I am wondering if the Global response, the official Leica Response to the SL3 overwriting issue went out to everyone on their mailing lists or just SL3 owners and the Forum's Leica SL pages? I say this because I know someone who did not get the email and he is about to buy the SL3. He only knows about the problem via me so if the response by Leica is also received by those in the "Leica Family"but who don't have the SL3 are forewarned about what they are buying into.  If this question has been addressed already in this section of the forum please ignore. I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts. 

2. If I was unhappy enough (which I nearly am) would I be able to take my SL3 back to the shop and ask for another camera that works properly? What are my options as an Australian consumer? Or perhaps instead, to ask for a refund because the camera doesn't do what its supposed to do re; Electronic shutter and overwriting issue? What would a consumer do in the case of paying for an item and finding out it's faulty? Usually the response would be; taking steps to return the product for a replacement or ask for a refund!

I guess what I am saying is that Leica has a great deal of leeway with its customer base. Consumers who are faithful and long time Leica users who will wait for firmware updates and follow work arounds to use the camera. I am one of these consumers and I give Leica the benefit of the doubt even after parting with thousands of dollars for supposedly quality equipment. It's a unique kind of consumer relationship where Leica's prices keep going up but when there is a problem they hope consumers will go along with their problems and wait patiently for a fix. Is this the picture of a modern Leica company going forward?    

Ken  

Why would someone who doesn’t own the camera get an email from Leica? I would hope Leica store sales staff are at least mentioning it though.

Australian consumer law is incredibly robust. You might, with this bug, be able to argue the camera is not fit for purpose. That won’t work for the sensor readout. It’s a known part of this sensor architecture. The same base sensor has been available for years in several cameras. The sensor works as intended.

They could implement EFCS though. That’d solve the issues and I’ll be first to join you asking Leica for it. I already have with every Leica I buy. Leica’s refusal to add EFCS is daft and pig headed.

You are absolutely correct that Leica get away with a lot. We like the brand so we do try and work around issues, where possible. But the damage they’re doing to their brand at the moment is immense. I imagine that even they are finally starting to see an issue that needs to be dealt with long term. They simply must improve their firmware. Especially as far as stability and robustness goes. It’s not good enough. Especially when loyal customers are also starting to question the brand.

Gordon

[SrMi]

Just now, Olaf_ZG said:

And what if your camera freezes? You won’t take the battery out? Leave it as is and get another one?

If a camera freezes, I expect to loose the last image (or two), but not the disaster the SL3 is doing.

I had freezes with X1D, SL2, M11, and Nikons, essentially with every camera that I used a lot. I do not know if I lost any images then, but I always assume I could have lost and redone the most recent shots—thankfully, no freezes with SL3 yet. The worst is the iPhone camera. No camera freezes so often at iPhone 15 and 14 Pro Max cameras, requiring a power cycle, which is quite slow.

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

If it isn’t a problem, then why would Leica mention it? The fact that they put out a half warning, means it is serious. 

I did say that it is a problem as I wrote: I assume the problem is "solved" by checking whether the camera is turned off before replacing the battery. Note that the quote is on <solved>, not <problem>, as the correct solution would be to update data on the card eagerly (which may have some performance penalties).

 

[Olaf_ZG]

1 minute ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Why would someone who doesn’t own the camera get an email from Leica? I would hope Leica store sales staff are at least mentioning it though.

 

I registered my SL2(s) at Leica, as well as my lenses. Leica doesn’t know (I assume) that I read this forum, but based on what I registered, they might assume I am in for a SL3.

Not receiving such mail has totally put me off. They had the data, but preferred short term profit over customer loyalty.

They are living their highs based on the success of the Q. Until a competitor comes up with a better Q. Then Leica is back to m/sl and nice reality that they totally messed those two up…

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I am guessing the camera overwrites images because the file information had not been written before the power was removed. Next time the camera starts up, it does not know about the files. This could happen with any electronic device. 

My point is that the availability of "sleep" functionality has nothing to do with the issue discussed.

When I finally was able to recreate the bug (deliberately) last week the files that disappeared were taken about an hour earlier. Not only that the camera can *insert* a few new files over old ones in the middle of a set. Jono has described this. So no. Not what you are describing at all. Not even close.

And yes. Lot’s of cameras have sleep functions. Just ones that don’t overwrite already written files that could have been taken an hour ago. Besides, the sleep function doesn’t need a button. The SL2 has a perfectly fine sleep function with a normal switch. Most modern cameras switch ion fast enough that a sleep button is not required.

Even Leica aren’t defending this. Why are you?

Gordon

[Planetwide]

Interesting that you had problems with the R7. It is widely used by the bird photographers. I have used my R5 to photograph aircraft moving at high speed at Reno without any AF tracking issues. 

The battery problems is Leica problem, and as such I am sure that they will address it. The SL2 had a few issues at introduction as well, and they were sorted out.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

When I finally was able to recreate the bug (deliberately) last week the files that disappeared were taken about an hour earlier. Not only that the camera can *insert* a few new files over old ones in the middle of a set. Jono has described this. So no. Not what you are describing at all. Not even close.

Thank you for the clarification. Many weird things could happen if the camera modifies the directory structure without flushing it entirely to the SD card. Leica should change the directory non-destructively, assuming that power can fail at any moment. 

6 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

And yes. Lot’s of cameras have sleep functions. Just ones that don’t overwrite already written files that could have been taken an hour ago. Besides, the sleep function doesn’t need a button. The SL2 has a perfectly fine sleep function with a normal switch. Most modern cameras switch ion fast enough that a sleep button is not required.

Most cameras go to sleep automatically, and sleep is used to have a quicker readiness. Waking up from sleep is always faster than starting up. 

10 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Even Leica aren’t defending this. Why are you?

I defend the sleep-by-button functionality on SL3. One is not forced to use it, and I like telling the camera when it should go to sleep instead of relying on a preset time-out. I wish there had been a notification that the camera was sleeping instead of being turned off.

I am saying that the workaround for the data loss is to ensure the camera is off before changing the battery. This is what I always do. This is what Nikon writes for their cameras (my underline):

Do not unplug the product or remove the battery while the product is on or while images are being recorded or deleted. Forcibly cutting power in these circumstances could result in loss of data or in damage to product memory or internal circuitry.

Nikon may have safeguards to prevent data loss, as in SL3, but Nikon still does not want to take any responsibility if you change batteries before turning off the camera.

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

Interesting that you had problems with the R7. It is widely used by the bird photographers. I have used my R5 to photograph aircraft moving at high speed at Reno without any AF tracking issues. 

The battery problems is Leica problem, and as such I am sure that they will address it. The SL2 had a few issues at introduction as well, and they were sorted out.

Widely reported. I just didn't do my due diligence.

R7 Focus Problems: Canon EOS R Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)

 

Canon's excuses are very lame. My least liked camera in a decade. R5 does this in the high speed modes as well, just no where near as often and not in lower speed modes. But I could have the R7 in single shot with eye detect on the eye, a basically stationary subject and just as you push the shutter it jumps off the subject. Hate that camera. My son was shooting with a XT-5 and his hit rate was noticeably better than the R7. This was his first serious photo trip.

I'd take a pair of SL3's over any Canon for my next wildlife trip. I like speed but I need accuracy.

K uses the R5 now and she's happy. Not a wildlife shooter. I did what I should have done and bought an A7R5 and A1. Night and day difference to the Canons.

Gordon

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Hallo,

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[algrove]

We can go back and forth forever. 

IMHO, the ONLY reason Leica sent out emails about the SL3 problem is because they already have been sued by some pro or pros and the legal department advised it is better to nip this now in order to cut the potential for more losses from lawsuits by admitting the problem, what has caused the problem and how to avoid the problem.

It's just that their BS about working hard to fix the issue after 4 months of it being out there and issuing the statement during the summer holidays which can last 4 weeks for some, it is highly unlikely they will come out with a good fix until vacationeers are back at their usual 40% level. How sad is that.

Since 2010, I have bought every new camera in M, Q and SL2S and SL3 line, but I will no longer. There is something very wrong in Wetzlar when the buyer is the beta tester.

Edited July 11, 2024 by algrove