Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[Planetwide]

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Leica has at least recognized the problem. I am sure that they will have a firmware update, unless it's hardware related. And if it is, they will step up.

I had a Sony A7s that did the same thing with video files. After complaining, I was basically ignored. They eventually fixed it without ever acknowledging the problem.

Goodbye Sony.

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[giganova]

Let’s be honest here: this is a clear user error. Cameras are very sophisticated computers that get more complex with every generation because we demand more features. If you remove the battery while that system is still powered on, it can lead to loss of data like any other computer because the individual subsystems in that computer need to be powered down in the proper sequence. Has anyone complained to Microsoft that you lost a Word file when you yanked out the power cord from your desktop, and demanded that Microsoft needs to “acknowledge the problem” and “rebuild trust”? 

I don’t quite understand why users think it’s ok to remove the battery while the camera is powered on and then complain about the manufacturer. “I’ve done this for years” is not a valid argument because you simply got away with that mistake due to the simpler electronic architecture of previous cameras. The fix that you demand from Leica is already here: turn the camera off before you remove the battery.

[BernardC]

15 minutes ago, giganova said:

don’t quite understand why users think it’s ok to remove the battery while the camera is powered on and then complain about the manufacturer. “I’ve done this for years” is not a valid argument because you simply got away with that mistake due to the simpler electronic architecture of previous cameras. The fix that you demand from Leica is already here: turn the camera off before you remove the battery.

I only partly agree. It may be a user error, but the on/off switch design encourages the user to make that error. It's a "the customer is always right" problem. While you may believe that the customer was using the product wrong, the fact is that they used it in a way that should have worked, and it failed nonetheless. It's not the end-user's fault that they couldn't figure-out a product's internal state. That's a UX issue.

[giganova]

4 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I only partly agree. It may be a user error, but the on/off switch design encourages the user to make that error. It's a "the customer is always right" problem. While you may believe that the customer was using the product wrong, the fact is that they used it in a way that should have worked, and it failed nonetheless. It's not the end-user's fault that they couldn't figure-out a product's internal state. That's a UX issue.

I agree with that 100%.

[sebben]

40 minutes ago, giganova said:

Let’s be honest here: this is a clear user error. Cameras are very sophisticated computers that get more complex with every generation because we demand more features. If you remove the battery while that system is still powered on, it can lead to loss of data like any other computer because the individual subsystems in that computer need to be powered down in the proper sequence. Has anyone complained to Microsoft that you lost a Word file when you yanked out the power cord from your desktop, and demanded that Microsoft needs to “acknowledge the problem” and “rebuild trust”? 

I don’t quite understand why users think it’s ok to remove the battery while the camera is powered on and then complain about the manufacturer. “I’ve done this for years” is not a valid argument because you simply got away with that mistake due to the simpler electronic architecture of previous cameras. The fix that you demand from Leica is already here: turn the camera off before you remove the battery.

I understand this is happening because the camera froze in operation and the only way to get it going again is to remove the battery so that you can power it up again. And then when you take new images it starts overwriting the previous taken images.

 

Correct me if I am wrong.

[jonoslack]

53 minutes ago, sebben said:

I understand this is happening because the camera froze in operation and the only way to get it going again is to remove the battery so that you can power it up again. And then when you take new images it starts overwriting the previous taken images.

 

Correct me if I am wrong.

Hi There

I think you are wrong!

I don't think the SL3 is guilty of freezing - the fundamental flaw happens when you pull the battery out without turning off the camera - This is usually done when the battery has a 'Battery Exhausted' message. not when the camera has frozen (I don't think it does freeze). Then the camera will start overwriting images from when it had previously been turned on. So if you turned on the camera, took 100 shots and then pulled the battery without switching off then turn it on again then it might start overwriting from 100 shots ago. If you turn off the camera and turn it on again then it goes back to the correct sequence. 

All the best

[Planetwide]

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1 hour ago, giganova said:

Let’s be honest here: this is a clear user error. Cameras are very sophisticated computers that get more complex with every generation because we demand more features. If you remove the battery while that system is still powered on, it can lead to loss of data like any other computer because the individual subsystems in that computer need to be powered down in the proper sequence. Has anyone complained to Microsoft that you lost a Word file when you yanked out the power cord from your desktop, and demanded that Microsoft needs to “acknowledge the problem” and “rebuild trust”? 

I don’t quite understand why users think it’s ok to remove the battery while the camera is powered on and then complain about the manufacturer. “I’ve done this for years” is not a valid argument because you simply got away with that mistake due to the simpler electronic architecture of previous cameras. The fix that you demand from Leica is already here: turn the camera off before you remove the battery.

I disagree. If this is user error, then it should have been a warning in the manual. As Jono pointed out, what are you supposed to do when the battery is exhausted? My guess is that Leica allow time to write the final images from the buffer, and then post the "battery exhausted" message once image writing is finished.

In theory, the buffer should also be non-volatile memory, so as to preserve the image files until the new battery is installed and writing can continue... If the camera is resetting the image counter to its initial start number, then that is a programming or memory error of some sort. As I mentioned, Sony also had this problem and it was fixed in firmware, I am sure that Leica will do the same.

[Jonathan Levin]

Through out the manual, it is advised to shut down camera before: battery pull, card change, lens change. Same with my Nikon dslr’s when I had those.

[ERSY Photography]

I always change batteries when the indicator is already flashing.
I don't wait for a full discharge.

Does this mean that I can go to a shoot, properly turn off the camera, and only then remove and replace the battery. and this bug will not happen?

Have I understood correctly that if the camera freezes and I forcibly remove the battery, I can then turn on the camera, turn it off properly, and then turn it on again without worrying about this bug?

What if I have 2 memory cards and alternate them each time I change the battery?

Edited July 10, 2024 by ERSY Photography

[jonoslack]

35 minutes ago, ERSY Photography said:

I always change batteries when the indicator is already flashing.
I don't wait for a full discharge.

Does this mean that I can go to a shoot, properly turn off the camera, and only then remove and replace the battery. and this bug will not happen?

Have I understood correctly that if the camera freezes and I forcibly remove the battery, I can then turn on the camera, turn it off properly, and then turn it on again without worrying about this bug?

What if I have 2 memory cards and alternate them each time I change the battery?

Hi There Yes, Yes and Yes!

Basically as I understand it - and I have been very much involved then,

1. if you shut down the camera properly then the bug will not happen

2. if the camera freezes and you remove the battery - turn it on - turn it off properly then you need not worry about this problem

3. If you alternate two memory cards when you change the battery you need not worry about this problem

(if you pulled the battery without switching off then you might get some duplicate file numbers on the new card).

I would say that 1 and 2 are sensible precautions, 3 only in critical circumstances

I hope that helps, and reassures you a bit -  I've shot tens of thousands of images without an issue . . . . except once when pulled the battery with an 'exhausted battery' notice was up and I lost 5 images

[Indeepthought]

14 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There Yes, Yes and Yes!

Basically as I understand it - and I have been very much involved then,

1. if you shut down the camera properly then the bug will not happen

2. if the camera freezes and you remove the battery - turn it on - turn it off properly then you need not worry about this problem

3. If you alternate two memory cards when you change the battery you need not worry about this problem

(if you pulled the battery without switching off then you might get some duplicate file numbers on the new card).

I would say that 1 and 2 are sensible precautions, 3 only in critical circumstances

I hope that helps, and reassures you a bit -  I've shot tens of thousands of images without an issue . . . . except once when pulled the battery with an 'exhausted battery' notice was up and I lost 5 images

Understanding how do things by the book is obviously prime. Sadly muscle reflexes and the  pump of adrenaline when working means reactions to freezing and other issues is not always by the book. The computer/camera should not fall apart from an inadvertent action. Safety, safeguards should be built in as part of the everyday usage/happenings… 🍺

[Indeepthought]

Somewhere out there are techs that both understand computers/electronic cameras, they should be engaged to go through the M11 range and the SL3’s. It’s obvious the Leica lads @ Wetzlar are sadly less than capable. 🍷

Edited July 10, 2024 by Indeepthought

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, giganova said:

Let’s be honest here: this is a clear user error.

No, it’s not, and anyway it doesn’t matter. Accidents happen. Perhaps the photographer is in a rush and forgot to switch off the camera. There should be a failsafe, and it’s not there. 

Unbelievable how people try to defend the undefensible. 

[Jonathan Levin]

Todays Lithium batteries can be charged in any state of discharge. Unlike the bad old days of NiCad batteries, the new batteries don't have a "memory" that would cause charge to state it was previously in.

these batteries can be charged any time: 3/4. 1/2, 1/4 etc. with no side effects. I have heard though that it is not good to run a Lith battery all the way down all the time (like we used to do with old NiCad technology. In fact, somewhere I read that that's not even good for the battery. I swap batteries at a charge level when if I know something is "coming up" in front of my lens. I've also heard charging to 80% is optimal. I'm no battery expert. Just thought I'd share.

[jaapv]

 

1 hour ago, Indeepthought said:

Understanding how do things by the book is obviously prime. Sadly muscle reflexes and the  pump of adrenaline when working means reactions to freezing and other issues is not always by the book. The computer/camera should not fall apart from an inadvertent action. Safety, safeguards should be built in as part of the everyday usage/happenings… 🍺

Well, it helps if customers read manuals. Some things are better not done, even inadvertently. For instance, it is never a good idea to slam a car into reverse whilst driving forward. Yes, there should be a lock preventing this, no, there isn't.

[Indeepthought]

Just now, jaapv said:

Well, it helps if customers read manuals. Some things are better not done, even inadvertently. For instance, it is never a good idea to slam a car into reverse whilst driving forward. Yes, there should be a lock preventing this, no, there isn't.

On many manual gearboxes there is a Reverse lock. On the electronic gearbox’s there is a failsafe..  Facts before thoughts!

[jaapv]

27 minutes ago, Indeepthought said:

On many manual gearboxes there is a Reverse lock. On the electronic gearbox’s there is a failsafe..  Facts before thoughts!

Not really, I never drove a car that had a lock other than one that can be overridden by pushing through a resistance or sometimes pushing a button. The point being that whatever one does as a designer to make a product idiot-proof there will always be an idiot who will make you look like a fool...( definitely not applicable to any forum member) 

[ERSY Photography]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There Yes, Yes and Yes!

Basically as I understand it - and I have been very much involved then,

1. if you shut down the camera properly then the bug will not happen

2. if the camera freezes and you remove the battery - turn it on - turn it off properly then you need not worry about this problem

3. If you alternate two memory cards when you change the battery you need not worry about this problem

(if you pulled the battery without switching off then you might get some duplicate file numbers on the new card).

I would say that 1 and 2 are sensible precautions, 3 only in critical circumstances

I hope that helps, and reassures you a bit -  I've shot tens of thousands of images without an issue . . . . except once when pulled the battery with an 'exhausted battery' notice was up and I lost 5 images

Thank you for your response!

I probably would never have known about the problem if I hadn't seen the video on YouTube.

Two weeks ago, I sold all my Canon equipment and bought a Leica SL3/Q3. As a wedding photographer, losing photos carries very high reputational risks, so I handle my gear carefully, turning off the camera before changing the lens and especially the battery.

Perhaps Leica should remove the short press button that puts the camera to sleep or leave the indicator flashing to avoid confusing users.

I never used the "Sleep" function.

I just turned off the camera.
The screen turning off was already enough to save battery.

Edited July 10, 2024 by ERSY Photography

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Indeepthought]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Not really, I never drove a car that had a lock other than one that can be overridden by pushing through a resistance or sometimes pushing a button. The point being that whatever one does as a designer to make a product idiot-proof there will always be an idiot who will make you look like a fool...

Absolutely….

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, ERSY Photography said:

.

Perhaps Leica should remove the short press button that puts the camera to sleep or leave the indicator flashing to avoid confusing users.

.

Or at least have both as options. I am sure some people really like the new sleep function. I’d be happy to disable it.

Gordon