Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[Planetwide]

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11 hours ago, SrMi said:

Is that opinion based on reading the forum?😜

No issues with my SL2. How's the M11 or SL3, lots of problems, and on going to some extent. I'll wait on the SL3 until the beta phase is over.

Edited July 9, 2024 by Planetwide

[algrove]

6 hours ago, jonoslack said:

No they didn't (as far as I'm aware)  - it was reported later

Jono

So approximately when did this beta tester report the issue?

[jplomley]

6 hours ago, Planetwide said:

No issues with my SL2. How's the M11 or SL3, lots of problems, and on going to some extent. I'll wait on the SL3 until the beta phase is over.

Running a pair of SL2 cameras and M10-R plus M10M....absolutely faultless, ultra-reliable and what I expect from Leica. No idea what's going on in Wetzlar these days, but would not touch an M11 or SL3 based on the reports I'm reading on the forum. Who needs that headache just for moderate improvement, especially when current camera's all continue to serve exceptionally well. Hopefully Leica can get back to form sooner rather than later.

Edited July 9, 2024 by jplomley

[jplomley]

18 hours ago, SrMi said:

Is that opinion based on reading the forum?😜

Fact, based on my experience as well. Although my M10-R and M10M are absolutely faultless

[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 hours ago, algrove said:

Jono

So approximately when did this beta tester report the issue?

By *beta* tester, you means someone who paid for their camera after release day and found the issue on a paying job? Pretty obvious it wasn’t found in the beta phase but after release. If it was and sent out anyway that’d be far far worse. But I don’t think Leica would do that. It’s just a mistake. A big one and unfortunately with the M11 issues quite damaging for the brand. But I see no malice from Leica or anyone involved with the camera. Hopefully Leica is reviewing a few things going forward though.

This is a fairly specific (and serious) bug. I put 4500 frames through my SL3 in the first three weeks and didn’t get it because of a small operational difference. And that was I had no working pressure so I didn’t shoot batteries until they died or pull them during sleep (which is easy when the camera doesn’t indicate if it’s asleep or off). I was testing my own camera but not for something like this. Had I still been shooting weddings/events though, I may have. In the heat of the moment I’ve pulled many batteries without turning the camera off or shot them till they die and done what’s basically a hot swap. I wouldn’t expect most beta testers to find a bug like that. I wouldn’t expect someone to find that bug unless it’s really in their normal shooting day to go thought two or more batteries in a fast paced environment. But if you give a camera to someone used to that type of shooting they’ll probably kill and swap batteries for testing. I had an old Canon that locked up(ish) after a hot swap. You had to turn the camera off and on again. If you just popped in a new battery the camera didn’t restart. No files lost but at a wedding, something you want to know, since my other bodies (also Canon) didn’t do that.

We don’t know if Leica has testers in this genre, but I suspect not. I will say I strongly suspect it’ll be added to the test list from now on though.

Gordon

Edited July 9, 2024 by FlashGordonPhotography

[LocalHero1953]

I would not expect beta testers to use their beta cameras in a high pressure pro shooting environment. Who is going to risk using a beta test camera for a wedding or other one-off event: photo-journalism, war photography, sports, fashion shoots…… Yet that is just the sort of occasion when this problem shows up. I suspect most beta testers are likely to use a test camera for landscapes, studio, product and other low risk, repeatable scenarios.

Edited July 9, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Indeepthought]

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No one knows (except Leica) what BETA testers found or encountered.. Maybe Leica brushed these issues off as ‘well it’s BETA!  Everything will be ok on launch!  Some minor issues always come along with a Launch,  sadly the M11 range & SL3 issues are frankly quite serious and really not acceptable on a newly launched Leica.. WAKE UP Leica..

[Herr Barnack]

On 7/5/2024 at 9:25 AM, jacksbenjamin said:

Many thanks for posting this update @LUF Admin -- just saw a very alarming video on YouTube about this exact issue and was curious if there was an official response from Leica. Hopefully they will get a revised firmware update out soon, pretty insane to have this problem from such a beloved company and camera level. Hope everyone is managing this problem ok and it has not been too devastating for the Leica community. // BEN JACKS 

First the M11 debacle - now this.  Discouraging and concerning in the extreme.

As a 20+ year user/disciple/lover of the M system, I just hope Leica will be able to get back on its feet and not be sucked under by these problems/issues.

[Indeepthought]

16 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

First the M11 debacle - now this.  Discouraging and concerning in the extreme.

As a 20+ year user/disciple/lover of the M system, I just hope Leica will be able to get back on its feet and not be sucked under by these problems/issues.

It’s the inability to find and correct the issues that will drag the company down.. 

[Herr Barnack]

4 minutes ago, Indeepthought said:

It’s the inability to find and correct the issues that will drag the company down.. 

I hope the Pooh-Bahs @Wetzlar will be made aware of this. 

At present, they don't seem to be.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[Ken Abrahams]

1. I am wondering if the Global response, the official Leica Response to the SL3 overwriting issue went out to everyone on their mailing lists or just SL3 owners and the Forum's Leica SL pages? I say this because I know someone who did not get the email and he is about to buy the SL3. He only knows about the problem via me so if the response by Leica is also received by those in the "Leica Family"but who don't have the SL3 are forewarned about what they are buying into.  If this question has been addressed already in this section of the forum please ignore. I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts. 

2. If I was unhappy enough (which I nearly am) would I be able to take my SL3 back to the shop and ask for another camera that works properly? What are my options as an Australian consumer? Or perhaps instead, to ask for a refund because the camera doesn't do what its supposed to do re; Electronic shutter and overwriting issue? What would a consumer do in the case of paying for an item and finding out it's faulty? Usually the response would be; taking steps to return the product for a replacement or ask for a refund!

I guess what I am saying is that Leica has a great deal of leeway with its customer base. Consumers who are faithful and long time Leica users who will wait for firmware updates and follow work arounds to use the camera. I am one of these consumers and I give Leica the benefit of the doubt even after parting with thousands of dollars for supposedly quality equipment. It's a unique kind of consumer relationship where Leica's prices keep going up but when there is a problem they hope consumers will go along with their problems and wait patiently for a fix. Is this the picture of a modern Leica company going forward?    

Ken  

[Indeepthought]

14 minutes ago, Ken Abrahams said:

1. I am wondering if the Global response, the official Leica Response to the SL3 overwriting issue went out to everyone on their mailing lists or just SL3 owners and the Forum's Leica SL pages? I say this because I know someone who did not get the email and he is about to buy the SL3. He only knows about the problem via me so if the response by Leica is also received by those in the "Leica Family"but who don't have the SL3 are forewarned about what they are buying into.  If this question has been addressed already in this section of the forum please ignore. I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts. 

2. If I was unhappy enough (which I nearly am) would I be able to take my SL3 back to the shop and ask for another camera that works properly? What are my options as an Australian consumer? Or perhaps instead, to ask for a refund because the camera doesn't do what its supposed to do re; Electronic shutter and overwriting issue? What would a consumer do in the case of paying for an item and finding out it's faulty? Usually the response would be; taking steps to return the product for a replacement or ask for a refund!

I guess what I am saying is that Leica has a great deal of leeway with its customer base. Consumers who are faithful and long time Leica users who will wait for firmware updates and follow work arounds to use the camera. I am one of these consumers and I give Leica the benefit of the doubt even after parting with thousands of dollars for supposedly quality equipment. It's a unique kind of consumer relationship where Leica's prices keep going up but when there is a problem they hope consumers will go along with their problems and wait patiently for a fix. Is this the picture of a modern Leica company going forward?    

Ken  

If anyone is about to purchase either an M11 or SL3 without doing any background homework, then they obviously have far to much moolah.. On the other hand, Leica should be ashamed to offer a piece of photographic equipment with such serious & inherent faults… 🍺

Edited July 10, 2024 by Indeepthought

[Simone_DF]

22 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Well, that's not really how it is likely to occur - every time it's happened to me it has been when the 'battery empty' message comes up, which perhaps isn't core package.

I don’t know the details of the defect, but to me anything related to data loss and power consumption should be considered part of the core testing suites

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

I don’t know the details of the defect, but to me anything related to data loss and power consumption should be considered part of the core testing suites

Ah well - it isn't so much data loss as data overwriting later (not really the same thing)

[jonoslack]

11 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I would not expect beta testers to use their beta cameras in a high pressure pro shooting environment. Who is going to risk using a beta test camera for a wedding or other one-off event: photo-journalism, war photography, sports, fashion shoots…… Yet that is just the sort of occasion when this problem shows up. I suspect most beta testers are likely to use a test camera for landscapes, studio, product and other low risk, repeatable scenarios.

It's a difficult conundrum - you're quite right, this situation is unlikely to occur in anything other than high pressure situations like a wedding or a sports shoot (or a Ladies Tractor Run). There is an added issue that one can't really use the images for 'real life' work, because it's still under embargo, making it even harder to use it for 'proper' work.

Mind you - that doesn't stop one making lots and lots of images in stressed situations - trouble is that if one or two are missing it's then very hard to notice (especially when the numbering sequence isn't disturbed, and Lightroom is showing your images in the order captured). 

I still think that there will be a complete fix to this very soon, but it'll certainly take some time for everyone to believe it!

All the best

Jono

[nonoketchup]

18 hours ago, algrove said:

Jono

So approximately when did this beta tester report the issue?

I'm one of these so called "beta" testers... well not officially. I reported it to Leica immediately after I found out I was missing images. This was early on (I got the camera end of march).

Unfortunately I experienced it at two weddings and I didn't notice it until afterwards. As a wedding photographer (and not to discredit other photographers' line of work, we are just all different), I go through thousands of frames at a fairly quick pace with quick battery depletions. As an SL2/Q2/M10 owner, the muscle memory of pressing/switching off the camera quickly was a normal and pretty standard before changing battery. Who knew it would end up in catastrophic failure.

Sadly, I'll never be able to get those photos back and the moment can never be recreated.

I'm happy for those who haven't experienced the issue and I never wish upon them, but take this as a warning... use other cameras for now. Quite frankly, even after the firmware update, I'll probably use the camera cautiously =T. I've had incredible experiences with my current lineup but trust is hard to earn back.

[algrove]

7 minutes ago, nonoketchup said:

 As an SL2/Q2/M10 owner, the muscle memory of pressing/switching off the camera quickly was a normal and pretty standard before changing battery. Who knew it would end up in catastrophic failure.

 I've had incredible experiences with my current lineup but trust is hard to earn back.

The last sentence is what bothers me more than anything. In the back of my mind for a LONG time I will ask "What else has Leica failed to correct?"

[sebben]

18 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I still think that there will be a complete fix to this very soon, but it'll certainly take some time for everyone to believe it!

The problem is if you use a camera to take images for a professional project where the output is part of multimillion dollar campaign you don't get the chance to redo it if suddenly some of your images are overwritten. No one in their right mind would trust a Leica SL3 in this situation right now. 

I suppose you can argue that these projects are often shot tethered to help mitigate the risk, however that is not always possible... and I'm also not sure how well the SL series works with a tethered workflow. 

 

[algrove]

So problems have persisted with the M11 series for many years, problems have persisted with the SL3 for many months and LEICA knew about the problem early on-like April, so now I wonder what will happen to my Q3 that no one has yet advised me about?

Heck, right now I'd rather have a PIXII for $4k instead of an M for $9K if this is the best Leica can do. 

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[jplomley]

Well, I was in the market for an SL3 and an M11 back when it was launched. Complaint after complaint kept me away. Instead of adding an SL3, I bought a second SL2 based on the rock solid performance of the first unit purchased close to its launch date. And instead of trading my M10-R for an M11, I decided to just add an M10M, again based on the fantastic performance of the M10-R. I have absolutely zero regrets with my decision and will hold off on any new purchases until these generations pass and we are into an SL4 and M12, then I shall have another look.