Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[LocalHero1953]

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14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

All manufacturers warn that unexpected power removal could lead  to loss of data. It is very hard, expensive, complicated, and slow to write software that can anticipate loss of power at any execution point without loss of data. 
The problem with SL3 is the amount of lost data and that it is hard to differentiate between sleep and shut down modes.

All manufacturers cover their backsides with such advice.

Leica and other manufacturers have written fail-safe software for their previous cameras. But not the SL3.

 

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

When I’m not sure whether the SL3 is in sleep or shut down mode, I press the shutter button to find out. 

That is an easy way to eliminate the issue discussed. 

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

All manufacturers cover their backsides with such advice.

Leica and other manufacturers have written fail-safe software for their previous cameras. But not the SL3.

 

Source? Implementing software/hardware in a consumer camera that can handle deliberate power loss to the system is impractical. Such systems are typically implemented for airplanes and space ships. Just because nobody reported it with previous cameras does not mean it cannot or did not happen. Maybe it would happen with M11 as well, but the on-off state is clearly visible on M11 or SL2. You gamble whenever you take the battery out without turning the camera off. 

[LocalHero1953]

31 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Source?

Experience.

It's been no gamble. None of my Leica digital cameras has ever lost images as a result of pulling a live battery. As I have posted several times, I have often done this, though more often with the SL series than M or Q.
If I did the same with the SL3, images are likely to be lost.
My comment did not refer to a specific standard.

I have just followed the sequence Jono Slack described in post #167 with my SL2S and Q2. Neither lost image files.

[jaapv]

I just took ten images on my SL601, pulled the battery with the red light still flashing, reinserted and took ten more images. None was lost, numbering was intact.

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Experience.

That is not how fail-safe software is defined. As a retired SW engineer, I may be too picky ;-).

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It's been no gamble. None of my Leica digital cameras has ever lost images as a result of pulling a live battery.

I was just able to lose many images and get corrupt DNG files with SL2-S by shooting at 25fps and removing the battery once the buffer was full (before the camera had time to transfer the images to the SD card). 

That is likely what we see with SL3: the camera did not update the data on the SD card. Users expect the camera to flush out all data to the card within a reasonable time, which varies and is not guaranteed. SL3 seems to flush the data only after it has been shut down.

[SrMi]

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4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I just took ten images on my SL201, pulled the battery with the red light still flashing, reinserted and took ten more images. None was lost, numbering was intact.

I do not have SL201 any longer, but I do not believe that images in the buffer can survive battery removal and reinsertion and that flushing them out will continue once the battery has been reinserted.

[jaapv]

Well, this is the way it went - I offer no theory.

[LocalHero1953]

18 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is not how fail-safe software is defined. As a retired SW engineer, I may be too picky ;-).

I was just able to lose many images and get corrupt DNG files with SL2-S by shooting at 25fps and removing the battery once the buffer was full (before the camera had time to transfer the images to the SD card). 

That is likely what we see with SL3: the camera did not update the data on the SD card. Users expect the camera to flush out all data to the card within a reasonable time, which varies and is not guaranteed. SL3 seems to flush the data only after it has been shut down.

I think you have to accept that not all of us are retired software engineers, using a specific technical definition. I trust you accept what I meant by my experience.

You may want to reread the experience of those losing images with the SL3; they are not shooting at 25fps.

I suspect many of us would give the camera a chance to clear the buffer before pulling the battery (if it hadn't died already). I just repeated your exercise (SL2-S). After waiting for the red light to stop blinking, I had 62 images on the card. Pulled the battery and replaced it, took another shot, and I had 63 images. I formatted the card, repeated the exercise, and the counter said I'd taken 50 shots; but I pulled the battery while the red light was flashing. After replacing the battery I only had 5 images on the card. TBH this is no surprise. I don't have a SL3, so I don't know if it shows a blinking light while saving images. 

But burst shooting is not what the SL3 problem is about.

 

Edited July 16, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

35 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I think you have to accept that not all of us are retired software engineers, using a specific technical definition. I trust you accept what I meant by my experience.

You may want to reread the experience of those losing images with the SL3; they are not shooting at 25fps.

I suspect many of us would give the camera a chance to clear the buffer before pulling the battery (if it hadn't died already). I just repeated your exercise (SL2-S). After waiting for the red light to stop blinking, I had 62 images on the card. Pulled the battery and replaced it, took another shot, and I had 63 images. I formatted the card, repeated the exercise, and the counter said I'd taken 50 shots; but I pulled the battery while the red light was flashing. After replacing the battery I only had 5 images on the card. TBH this is no surprise. I don't have a SL3, so I don't know if it shows a blinking light while saving images. 

But burst shooting is not what the SL3 problem is about.

 

We agree that SL3 has an issue that should be fixed ASAP. As mentioned, simple precautions can prevent that issue.

We disagree on whether removing the battery while the camera runs is the standard operating procedure.

[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

We agree that SL3 has an issue that should be fixed ASAP. As mentioned, simple precautions can prevent that issue.

We disagree on whether removing the battery while the camera runs is the standard operating procedure.

Yes, there are workarounds.

The notion of a standard operating procedure is alien to most consumers. More relevant is what they are likely to do with a camera in normal situations. Not everyone's practices involve rapid shooting and a need to change batteries in a hurry, but they do for many. As I've written before, the SL is marketed as a robust camera capable working in professional environments - it's not marketed as a camera for slow contemplative photography.

Edited July 16, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

I did about everything to attempt to replicate the SL3 error on an SL601. The only way to lose images is to pull the battery whilst the camera is writing from the buffer to the card, which is quite normal. It cannot store images that haven't been saved. It rates as user error to pull a battery on a camera that is flashing red.
The camera will pick up the numbering without error at the last image written in all conditions and does not overwrite anything. 

[SrMi]

17 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I did about everything to attempt to replicate the SL3 error on an SL601. The only way to lose images is to pull the battery whilst the camera is writing from the buffer to the card, which is quite normal. It cannot store images that haven't been saved. It rates as user error to pull a battery on a camera that is flashing red.
The camera will pick up the numbering without error at the last image written in all conditions and does not overwrite anything. 

I cannot replicate the SL3 issue in SL2 neither. We were discussing whether removal of battery can cause loss of images at all. And of course it can. We expect that the camera has flushed all data to the disk after a short while so that loss of power does not cause loss of data. That is not what happens with SL3. User errors happen.

[LocalHero1953]

29 minutes ago, SrMi said:

User errors happen

If you mean that the SL3 issues are user errors, then that is where we disagree

[SrMi]

42 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you mean that the SL3 issues are user errors, then that is where we disagree

That is not what I meant.

[jaapv]

It depends, if one defines user error as handling in a way that triggers an error, it is.
OTOH, if one defines user error as handing outside the margins of reasonable use, it is not.

I would go for the second definition.

46 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you mean that the SL3 issues are user errors, then that is where we disagree

 

[IkarusJohn]

This is probably the wrong place to post this, but is it time to dump SD cards?  We’ve had problems with SD cards since the M9.  I’m very happy with the 1TB of internal memory in my X2D.  I do use a CFE card (and it was shockingly expensive), but I now wonder why.

I do understand that failure of the internal memory is potentially problematic, but I have solid state memory in my computers and have never had a failure.

[jaapv]

Completely agree with one caveat. Using a memory card gives the option of storing it for a longer period in a safe as a backup. 

[Olaf_ZG]

12 pages further and still people trying to convince Leica isn’t at fault. They are. Their camera is losing images, user error or not, Leica should have solved this. They didn’t.

But, they are curious about their menu’s. Who cares if your cam aint working as it should?

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[Indeepthought]

21 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

This is probably the wrong place to post this, but is it time to dump SD cards?  We’ve had problems with SD cards since the M9.  I’m very happy with the 1TB of internal memory in my X2D.  I do use a CFE card (and it was shockingly expensive), but I now wonder why.

I do understand that failure of the internal memory is potentially problematic, but I have solid state memory in my computers and have never had a failure.

We have used SD cards for years, admittedly some have proved faulty. But, surely it’s up to the camera manufacturers to ensure their electronics are compatible with all if not the majority of SD cards.. can you imagine the uproar if your family car would only run properly/safely on one make of tyre! Over the last 20years of using all makes of digital cameras I have never been told ‘use this specific make’ of media..