Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[jaapv]

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Our main job site lists 12.000 IT vacancies - in a country of less than 18.000.000 inhabitants - and there are more vacancy sites and Linked-in. If you want an IT job, you'll have one within a day - likely even without interview.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jonoslack]

21 hours ago, Stef63 said:

I would suggest inserting an additional step between steps 2 and 3: if the file number exists and the camera is in a debug mode, write all memory states and program debug logs to a file on the card. This could facilitate providing developers with feedback from devices that are actively used in various real-world settings.

Sophisticated and complex hardware and software devices typically have some sort of logging functionality. For example, when a car exhibits unusual behavior, a mechanic does not test drive a similar model to see if it exhibits the same issues; instead, they connect the affected car to a computer to download the log files. This is a standard practice for many devices that rely on intricate interactions between hardware and software components, evident even in appliances like dishwashers. By enabling a debug mode that records all relevant internal information into log files, Leica could empower end-users experiencing rare or intermittent bugs to provide meaningful feedback, just as mechanics diagnose cars.

Reasonable - but honestly in this case it's bleeding obvious what's happening, which is that the frame counter is being stored in volatile memory which is lost if the camera has the battery removed without shutting down!

But I should also say that knowing it, this is really easy to avoid, simply make sure that you switch the camera off before changing the battery (and check to see if it's sleeping first). I can easily duplicate the problem, but it doesn't happen all the time and I would be very very unlikely to do it by mistake - especially now!, If you have turned the camera off and on in the meantime then it's okay. 

I think Leica were right to publicise it, but I don't think it should stop any of us using our cameras - I've just got into a habit of changing the battery after shooting for a fresh one - and keeping an eye on the file counter - it's never happened in any kind of surprising situation. 

I have real hope that they'll get this fixed very quickly. . . . whether it should have happened in the first place is a different issue, but we are where we are!

All the best

Edited July 8, 2024 by jonoslack

[Simone_DF]

18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Our main job site lists 12.000 IT vacancies - in a country of less than 18.000.000 inhabitants - and there are more vacancy sites and Linked-in. If you want an IT job, you'll have one within a day - likely even without interview.

You have to consider that many of the job listings are duplicates, e.g. same job offer posted multiple times to be on top of the list, then companies outsourcing to different headhunters, expired listings, scams and data miners, etc, so reduce the number by half.

But even in that case, many offers are simply not appealing. I've recently changed my job, so I went through the process myself last spring, and it took me 3 months. Me: almost 20 years of experience in IT, both hardware and software, in various roles. Worked for some of the biggest companies on the planet and some smaller ones. It was not that easy for me to find a new position despite my CV. For example, as someone who works in IT, I don't even bother to look at job offers that are onsite or hybrid. Remote work is the way to go for me. Then there's pay. For some senior positions that required years of experience, which I have, I've been offered about half my current salary. Another company wanted me to go through a 5 interviews process + a one hour test. Thanks but no, thanks, I'm not in high school was my answer. 

You won't get an IT job within a day. Companies make it hard for candidates, many companies don't even reply to your application.

I see Leica IT job offerings are all onsite in Wetzlar, if they're struggling to find a good candidate, that is the first impediment. Not everyone is interested in relocating to a village in Germany, or commute 2h per day. And second, all the job offers are in German. Switching to English, at least for the IT team, would open the door to the rest of the world. 

[jaapv]

And that is exactly what I meant by the traditional mindset being part of the problem. You need to know about the German ways. Moving to the next town is emigrating    Wetzlar is a nice town. Within striking distance of Frankfurt and you can go skiing every weekend in winter. 
As for job switching: I’m an aged dentist 78, semi retired but still like to work a couple of days a week. My previous job terminated June 30th. As soon as it got out, much to my surprise, I was flooded with job offers. even from Australia 😳 Happily working ten minutes down the road now. At 12.5% higher income. 

[Olaf_ZG]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Err, in Western Europe the problem is not hire more people (Leica has been trying to for quite a while now), but  find more people.
 

A question of supply and demand. Offer enough, and you will attract good people.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

As a customer, I want results, not excuses, especially at Leica’s price point and “luxury” experience.
Not enough Devs on the team? Not my problem. I reckon Leica had a few very profitable years. Hire more people. 

Leica M11 was partially developed during COVID-19, requiring teams to work remotely. This may have negatively influenced the quality of the software.

 

[SrMi]

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51 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

A question of supply and demand. Offer enough, and you will attract good people.

If you are not in AI, there is a limit to how much companies can offer without passing the cost to the consumers.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Not really, at least not for IT jobs.

It is easy to find mediocre IT people, but it has always been hard to find competent people. Companies have been shelling out millions of dollars to acquire companies to get competent IT people.

[Jim B]

5 hours ago, jrp said:

Have you taken the battery out while your camera was asleep?  How did you know it was (not) asleep?

No I have never taken the battery out during sleep mode.  I know the camera was not in sleep mode because when I shut it off the red Leica logo appears as it’s shutting off.

[SrMi]

I have yet to change the battery during a day of shooting, so there are no issues here :).

[Simone_DF]

22 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Leica M11 was partially developed during COVID-19, requiring teams to work remotely. This may have negatively influenced the quality of the software.

 

And 4 years later, the issues are still not solved. Covid is just another lame scapegoat. My previous company released hardware products in 2020, 2021 and 2022. We also worked remotely. Our productivity increased and we reported less bugs than the years pre-covid. 

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Reasonable - but honestly in this case it's bleeding obvious what's happening, which is that the frame counter is being stored in volatile memory which is lost if the camera has the battery removed without shutting down!

That's the symptom (camera loses track of what's been written), but it's probably not the cause. My hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that the firmware thinks that data has been flushed to disk when it hasn't. One likely cause for this is an I/O bug in some chip.

Keep in mind that Leica buys their utility chips the same way that any other manufacturer does. The same chip is probably used in hundreds of products, however those products don't have a combination of other factors that allow the bug to reveal itself. The fact that battery removal is done physically (not a menu option), but on/off is a virtual switch, is one such combination of factors.

It could also be a race condition where processes assume that concurrent processes have finished.

Long story short: if it was a simple bug, it would be fixed by now. Assuming Leica hasn't lost any key team members, the same people who wrote the code can update the code, irrespective of what we think about their pay package, or the location of their chairs. It's also likely that the bug isn't in Leica's code at all.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

And 4 years later, the issues are still not solved. Covid is just another lame scapegoat. My previous company released hardware products in 2020, 2021 and 2022. We also worked remotely. Our productivity increased and we reported less bugs than the years pre-covid. 

Once you have a mess, it is hard to get out of it. We designed two compilers in a Silicon Valley company. One was using healthy development and debugging startegies, the other was a mess. The one was very stable form the launch, the other took 6 or more years to get stable.

[Simone_DF]

13 minutes ago, BernardC said:

It's also likely that the bug isn't in Leica's code at all.

Sure. It’s all in our head. 

[BernardC]

1 minute ago, Simone_DF said:

Sure. It’s all in our head. 

I mean that it might be in the firmware for a utility chip.

[Simone_DF]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Once you have a mess, it is hard to get out of it. We designed two compilers in a Silicon Valley company. One was using healthy development and debugging startegies, the other was a mess. The one was very stable form the launch, the other took 6 or more years to get stable.

Yeah, but as a reminder Leica also launched a Monochrome and a M11-P with the same issues, a Q3 with similar issues, and now a SL3 with disappearing photos. Do you see a trend here?

[SrMi]

31 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Yeah, but as a reminder Leica also launched a Monochrome and a M11-P with the same issues, a Q3 with similar issues, and now a SL3 with disappearing photos. Do you see a trend here?

Same development team, strategies, and mistakes ;-)?

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

That's the symptom (camera loses track of what's been written), but it's probably not the cause. My hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that the firmware thinks that data has been flushed to disk when it hasn't. One likely cause for this is an I/O bug in some chip.

Keep in mind that Leica buys their utility chips the same way that any other manufacturer does. The same chip is probably used in hundreds of products, however those products don't have a combination of other factors that allow the bug to reveal itself. The fact that battery removal is done physically (not a menu option), but on/off is a virtual switch, is one such combination of factors.

It could also be a race condition where processes assume that concurrent processes have finished.

Long story short: if it was a simple bug, it would be fixed by now. Assuming Leica hasn't lost any key team members, the same people who wrote the code can update the code, irrespective of what we think about their pay package, or the location of their chairs. It's also likely that the bug isn't in Leica's code at all.

I realise that’s only the symptom Bernard - but there is no need to cure the problem if you can completely relieve the symptom.

which would be

1. Get the camera to check the next number when switching on (with reference to the cards). It actually does this if you switch off and then switch on the camera after the problem has occurred.

2. simply to read the cards having established a file number before writing to disk and incrementing the number if already exists. 

It doesn’t need you to fix the problem

Best

Jono

Edited July 8, 2024 by jonoslack

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[BernardC]

12 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

1. Get the camera to check the next number when switching on (with reference to the cards). It actually does this if you switch off and then switch on the camera after the problem has occurred.

2. simply to read the cards having established a file number before writing to disk and incrementing the number if already exists. 

That will work if the file allocation table on the card is up-to date. It sounds like that's not the case, meaning that the image data is on the card, but the allocation table hasn't been updated, so the camera overwrites the files. I'm speculating, of course, but I've seen similar bugs before.

[RMF]

7 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Or perhaps more experienced people. It’s not always ‘more headcount’ that make software better/cleaner/bug free; sometimes more people can be quite detrimental to development. What they need to do is capture logs of these errors/crashes, prioritize them, fix the bugs, test, and hopefully not cause any regressions. In addition it would be ideal if Leica would publish a firmware release schedule, and also when they release a firmware update to include release detailed release notes of what is ‘fixed’, what are known issues left to be resolved. This is all basic stuff for software development.

 

 

.

Edited July 8, 2024 by RMF