Next Round of M8 Firmware--What to Expect?

[erl]

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"A poor tradesman always blames his tools."

 

Someone told me that many years ago. I thought about and considered it whenever I had a "a problem" with my gear. Nearly always the 'problem' was either due to poor maintenance (my fault) or poor operator (my fault, again!). Eventually, I realized that high performance gear requires (demands?) a high performance operator. Think about that next time you want to blame your gear, for anything.

 

The M8 is not, nor ever will be perfect. It's just like you and me. It needs understanding. So does your other 'high performance' camera. They are not equal by the way, but different. So stay awake and learn to drive it the way it does perform brilliantly. I am qualified to make these remarks because I was one of the first to commit to the M8 in November 2006 and I have been earning a solid living from it ever since. As I said, it's not perfect, but I understand that and work around it's foibles, just like I used to work around all the foibles of all my other cameras (now sleeping in semi-retirement).

 

If it doesn't suit the work you do, you made the mistake by selecting it. It is no more than a tool and as the artisan you (are supposed to) choose the right tool for the job.

 

To those nay sayers out there, try reviewing your image files and see how many good pics you have to pit against your M8 images. Dare to tell us the ratio? Be honest now.

[barjohn]

At the risk of being flamed, I purchased the M8 to replace the Epson RD 1 for three reasons:

a) I wanted a camera that was reliable and had a reputable company that would back its warranty

I was looking for an improvement in high ISO and general IQ, and

c) I wanted a camera as small and light weight as possible to encourage me to carry it with me.

 

The M8 provides very high IQ files up to the same limits as the RD 1 though not above it as I was hoping. The M8 has shown itself to be far less reliable than the RD 1 which has been a big disappointment. I really expected much more with the Leica name then I ever expected from Epson, yet the Epson never has shown the issues that the Leica has shown. Both seem to require RF calibration adjustments more than I expected; however, the Leica is perhaps a little easier to do.

 

I am very disappointed in the Leica support in general and the number of random problems that seem to materialize from time-to-time.

 

I have written & faxed Leica NJ and Solms asking them to do one of the following:

1. Provide a firmware update that fixes the outstanding known problems that have existed for 9 months or longer and meets their written specifications or

2. Provide a timetable as to when we can expect these issues to be fixed or

3. refund me my money and I will return the camera.

 

I don't want to wake up and find that the fix is to buy an M9 because they have moved on from the M8 and left it orphaned like they did the DMR. I don't mind seeing a high tech product diminish in value because it has been super-ceded by technology, what I don't want is a high tech product super-ceded by the company having lost interest.

 

So far I have heard nothing from Leica NJ or Solms despite both email and fax delivery of my request. The next message they will hear from me will be a hearing notice in court in CA after I have given them 30 days to respond. Don't get me wrong, I really love the camera and my preference would be for Leica to live up to its promises but at $5K, I expect them to honor their commitment as I honored mine when I gave them my money. Notice that I didn't ask them to fix everything instantly but just to commit to when they would fix things. I did give them a detailed list though I won't repeat it here. So, if you think this is unreasonable, flame away and Happy New year!

[stephengilbert]

Aside from all their other mistakes, Leica failed in allowing sales to lawyers.

[jrc]

I better go get more regular SD cards while they are available because SDHC are starting to show up everywhere including Costco. I might have to pay premium for for regular SD cards soon.

-tanka

 

Not funny. I can understand much of Leica's behavior, but it would be good if they would tell us IF a firmware upgrade will enable the M8 to use SDHC, which is obviously the SD format of the future. If the M8 can't be made to use it, then I'm with you -- I might go out and buy a few more cards.

[barjohn]

Aside from all their other mistakes, Leica failed in allowing sales to lawyers.

 

You'll be thanking your stars they did when leica abandons the M8 in favor of sales of the Mx and your M8 isn't sellable on eBay for a tenth of what you paid for it. Oh, and when your M8 fails and you can't get it fixed for months you will be saying where are the lawyers when I need them.

 

I don't know where some of you get the notion that a company should not deliver what it promises. After all, it is in complete control of what promises it makes, your only option is to accept their promises at face value and honor your promise to pay them the agreed upon sum. If you charged the camera on a credit card and you then informed the credit card company that you weren't going to pay until you were satisfied and insisted Leica satisfy you before you released payment, Leica wouldn't be too happy. It is a trust relationship, they promise to deliver a product that meets the specifications they publish and you promise to pay them the agreed upon amount. When either party fails to keep its promise, it opens itself to litigation. The simplest solution is to keep your promises. Sometimes circumstances arise that make it difficult or impossible and then your second best option is to renegotiate to the satisfaction of all parties or rescind the contract and return everyone to the position they had before the contract was executed.

[Guest stnami]

John sounds like the reasons I bought the RD-1 ..........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......and not the M8 .....................

[Kent10D]

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You'll be thanking your stars they did when leica abandons the M8 in favor of sales of the Mx and your M8 isn't sellable on eBay for a tenth of what you paid for it. Oh, and when your M8 fails and you can't get it fixed for months you will be saying where are the lawyers when I need them.

 

And when the lawyers go to work and put Leica out of business, or make it impossible for Leica to continue developing digital rangefinder cameras, who is going to come to our rescue then? I'm not convinced that lawyers are the solution.

 

I don't know where some of you get the notion that a company should not deliver what it promises.

 

That's pretty odd logic. I don't think anybody has said that. Anywhere. On the other hand, I don't know where you get the notion that everyone feels, or should feel, the same way as you apparently do. Many of us are quite happy with our M8s. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the the majority of M8 users are quite happy. And that's not because the camera bears the mystical and unimpeachable Leica logo, but because for many (most) of us it does the job required of it. With flying colors.

[wlaidlaw]

I agree with a lot that Barjohn says. It is a pretty sorry state of affairs when I am frightened to send my camera for rectification of the numerous electronic glitches, as I fear it will come back worse than when I sent it, having been without it for 10 to 12 weeks. Now I hear Leica are offering to give us the service we should have had all along but only if we pay an extra $150 - what bare faced cheek! I love my M8 but my three experiences of Leica service all on lenses, over the last 12 months, have been appalling. My 12 months guarantee runs out in a few days. I feel the least Leica can do is to extend the warranty for those countries that only offered 12 months, like Spain, where I bought mine. This would be some form of compensation for all the hiccoughs we have had to put with since purchase. I accept that I knew I was buying a cutting edge product when I got it last January and I expected it to be "work in progress" but I expected Leica to provide immaculate back up. After all that is why one of the reasons one buys a premium priced product.

 

Wilson

[Kent10D]

Hi Wilson,

 

Just for the sake of clarification ... you haven't actually sent your M8 in for service, only lenses? And are the many electronic glitches of which you speak different from the known firmware related problems?

 

I'm really not trying to challenge you on this, just keep things in perspective.

 

Many of the people who come to a forum like this do so because they have a problem. As such the forum provides a rather lopsided view of what's really going on. My personal experience with the M8 has been very positive, as has that of the only other person I know personally and am in contact with on a regular basis who owns and uses an M8. Admittedly it's a relatively small sample, but nothing in my first-hand experience (so far) warrants accusations of incompetence or irresponsibility on the part of Leica, or threats of legal action. I can understand that people who have had serious problems are frustrated and angry, but I honestly don't think that is representative of the majority. There are problems ... and frustrated and angry users ... with any cutting-edge product. Which is not to say that people who are having real problems shouldn't do something about them, they most certainly should, but broad, sweeping statements of dissatisfaction that ostensibly represent a majority of Leica or M8 users are, in my opinion, way off the mark. (And once again that isn't directed at you personally, it's just that there's such a lot of "it" about.)

[croweatr]

Aside from all their other mistakes, Leica failed in allowing sales to lawyers.

[erl]

Clearly lawyers have more dignity than anyone. When then they stand on it, they are "so tall."

 

Never found one that helped me take better pictures though! I'll stick to my M8, mate!

[wlaidlaw]

Hi Wilson,

 

Just for the sake of clarification ... you haven't actually sent your M8 in for service, only lenses? And are the many electronic glitches of which you speak different from the known firmware related problems?

 

I'm really not trying to challenge you on this, just keep things in perspective.

 

Many of the people who come to a forum like this do so because they have a problem. As such the forum provides a rather lopsided view of what's really going on. My personal experience with the M8 has been very positive, as has that of the only other person I know personally and am in contact with on a regular basis who owns and uses an M8. Admittedly it's a relatively small sample, but nothing in my first-hand experience (so far) warrants accusations of incompetence or irresponsibility on the part of Leica, or threats of legal action. I can understand that people who have had serious problems are frustrated and angry, but I honestly don't think that is representative of the majority. There are problems ... and frustrated and angry users ... with any cutting-edge product. Which is not to say that people who are having real problems shouldn't do something about them, they most certainly should, but broad, sweeping statements of dissatisfaction that ostensibly represent a majority of Leica or M8 users are, in my opinion, way off the mark. (And once again that isn't directed at you personally, it's just that there's such a lot of "it" about.)

 

Kent,

 

The most worrying thing about my M8 is the locking up on sensor cleaning. Sometimes it takes two battery changes before the shutter will close again. I always make sure that it has a freshly charged battery when I clean and that my other two batteries are freshly charged as well. I also have the usual faults of a very early camera (#302) of venetian blinds both B&W and R&B, camera failing to wake, revolving menus, skipping images on play, erratic flash sync, locking up (temporary death syndrome), occasional blank images etc. I know that what it needs is the T3 update but the horror stories of people getting their cameras back worse than when they sent them puts me off. I can work round what I have now but if it came back worse, I could not. My camera's history, even though bought as a new not refurbished camera, turned out to be less than wholly clear and Leica said that Leica UK should lend me an M8, while mine had a total overhaul/update. I have not been able to winkle a loaner as yet, from Leica UK. Even though my experience this year has been limited to lenses, I get the overwhelming impression that chaos reigns in Solms' service department. I am leaving for my sailing trip in the Caribbean on the 1st of February and the chances of getting my M8 back before then is nil unless I pay their rip-off fast servicing charge. My 12 month warranty runs out on the 25th of January. Do I feel rather stuffed and not just with turkey - yes I do.

 

Wilson

[ArtZ]

Right now I’m spending Christmas in Spain. December 24th I took some pictures of my dad (90 yo). I could see the pictures on the screen after being taken for a couple of seconds. Everything seemed to work normally.

 

When I tried to see the pictures (45-60min later), I had no picture of my dad in the camera. I could see previous pictures (Dec 23rd), but none of the pictures I had just taken… like if I had never pressed the shutter (not even a black picture). I tried with my laptop. Nothing.

 

At first, I thought it was a problem with the SD card. I swapped SD cards on both M8s. On the other body, no problem. I tried to take some more pictures with the other card (and two spare cards). Same problem. My M8 turns on, seems like if everything is working, the number of pictures on the tiny LCD screen decreases after a shoot (but goes back to the real number after turning off and on the M8). And don’t tell me it comes from dirty SD contacts… I never had to clean SD contacts in any other device (cameras, laptop, card readers, etc.)

 

When I’ll be back to Paris, I have to send it to Solms. It’s the newest body (Sep. 2007, just before the price went up) but I suspect it’s a refurbished body (sold as new –not by my dealer but by Leica itself).

 

Yes, I’m fed up. I never had these problems with other brands.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I would check your card reader before doing anything. This sounds more like a computer card reader issue. and I bet a dozen donuts it's Sandisk cards giving you a hard time too.

 

 

John i have to ask what promises did Leica make, I have never seen any to be honest. There have been from memory 5 firmware updates since release, and a hardware change which they did give everyone a 30 percent off voucher for that had bought before a certain date. The only thing that comes to mind is SDHC but I don't even think that was in the specs. The IR filter issue they did give 2 free filters.

 

I'm trying to think what was in the specs. that is not in the camera. if you can give specific details maybe I can get a answer.

[Shootist]

Boy Guy you are up early, and I thought I got up early.

 

SD cards, in the manual it says UP TO 4GB's, larger SD cards with firmware update.

 

I know you can't say but I take it from your inference that SDHC support is not in the beta you have (no need to answer in anyway to my think as I'll think what I want because it is my world and everybody else just lives in it;) ).

SDHC support would be nice I guess altho I don't plan ion using it as 2GB cards are fine for me. The only problem comes into play when standard SD card are no more and the only ones you can buy are the SDHC type.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Yes up way to early for a Saturday. I agree no question we need SDHC support. Those cards should be faster for read and write plus there are other benefits to them and we are getting to a point regular cards are getting harder to find. The M8 is not perfect we all know that and I would be the last guy to say it is, I have experienced SDS. No question there have been service issues and such.

[vic vic]

erl hi, how r u ..

oh, u mean i am trademan ? im not a trademan.. im photographer :-) no erl, if that was the case of "trademan's problems" i wouldnot even write a single word about it.. if that problem was only once, i wouldnot write a word. if the problem was rumor , i wouldnot write a single word.. im telling u a story that happened several times in more or less same way , and im telling u that since none of the cameras was mine, there was always a real owners of those cameras , for whom those things were not too surprising but their nerves seemed to boil inside them :-)

when u talk whether it is for this user or not for that user .. i agree with u... sure, we can say eassily that sinar, alpa and linhof (far more superior build quality and reliability) are not for everybody taste or every job..... defenetly agree ...... but this is not the case here......

here we already talk about dedicated and loyal M system users (like i am for example in my case) ...

erl.... again.. i just wanted to take a few pictures for fun, nothing more.. and too many times it was simply impossible from the begining without those " IF & BUT " ...... and i dont even mention the issues afterwards (and here too, forget about the operator blame)

[vic vic]

wilson and manuel .... since it happened that i came across the solms service recently.. i can say rite now only this : this service reminds me of cheap mediteranian dealer attitude .. u know what i mean :-)

and especially the fact, that once the problem occurs, instead of solving it nicely and especially with responsibility, they ignore the problem, ignore people, and simply escalate things to the worse , up to surrealism ....

sorry but very soon after having busness with them it is apparent that it is far form being , as they call it, premium pro-service, (and unfortunatly, many times far from being even "premium product" ) .....

 

oh, where are the lawyers :-) i guess people still have some love to the past years of this company and the heritage of decades ... but it starts to get a little invisible behind the fog of current affairs.... the lawters are not the issues here.... the issue is the "remain&decreasing-credit" that leica still has for its years of "glory"... some credit still left VS some patience still left :-)

[barjohn]

John i have to ask what promises did Leica make, I have never seen any to be honest. There have been from memory 5 firmware updates since release, and a hardware change which they did give everyone a 30 percent off voucher for that had bought before a certain date. The only thing that comes to mind is SDHC but I don't even think that was in the specs. The IR filter issue they did give 2 free filters.

 

I'm trying to think what was in the specs. that is not in the camera. if you can give specific details maybe I can get a answer.

 

Guy, the promises are in their specifications, the owner's manual and in the limited 2 year warranty along with the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose.

 

Under the Federal Warranty Act: Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act [15 U.S.C. Secs. 2301-2312] A "full warranty" must meet certain standards: e.g., the seller must provide reasonable service and repair facilities: must allow the purchaser to obtain a refund or replacement if the product proves defective and cannot be repaired after a reasonable number of attempts by the seller; and there can be no limitations or disclaimers on implied warranty liability. [15 U.S.C. Sec 2304]

 

A "limited warranty" is anything less than a "full warranty." Even with a "limited warranty," however, no total disclaimer of implied warranty liability is allowed. However, a limitation on the duration of liability to a reasonable period of time is permitted it conscionable in length and conspicuously disclosed. [15 U.S.C. Sec 2308]

 

There are other requirements, such as giving the seller notice of breach of warranty, giving the seller a reasonable time to cure, etc. However, the remedies available to a buyer are substantial and include attorney's fees. Generally speaking, it is far less expensive for a seller to make good or rescind the sale than fight a legal battle.

 

So what are my concerns: As I stated earlier, I am concerned that Leica's inability to resolve the numerous "glitches" (some more serious than others) after a year plus in production is because there is some inherent flaw in the design or components selected and within a few years it will be almost impossible or prohibitively expensive to get the camera repaired when it fails. If the problems were all only firmware issues it is logical to assume that they would have been fixed by now. I didn't pay my $5K as a contribution to Leica's financial health but rather to obtain the highest quality product in line with their reputation for producing a high quality precision made product with the world's best engineering. I'm sure Leica thanks those of you that view your expenditure as a contribution to Leica's continued survival and financial health. I too wish them success, just not at my expense.

 

I too love the M8 but I want it to be reliable and working well 3 to 5 years from now and not abandoned like the DMR or the RD 1 was by Epson. Leica may soon release new cameras and those that are professional and can write off their investment for tax purposes may not care if the only fix for the M8 is the M9 but for the non-professional, that is not a suitable option.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well first the M8 is there baby not Imacons like the DMR so that part of deletion from the lineup will probably never happen. The DMR was a unique case and leica learned a big lesson there, I think they will be the first to tell you that. Now not being a lawyer but all specs are subject to change and i think almost every company states that in there marketing and manuals, so not sure how valid going by the specs are. I do understand your points though and i think a lot of us agree on some level. Yes we had to grow along with leica to get things correct or near correct. Be it right or wrong that is something maybe we all should have taken into consideration being there first digital M body. I guess we could refer the same things that happened with Kodaks first offering into FF with the 14n , that was a real mess. Delayed forever and 1000 firmware and a sensor upgrade later that folks paid for. But that never lived up to anything remotely like they wanted to turn out and they got burned bad for it. Yes i agree things could be better but things have turned out better than first released too and yes there is effort to correct many things. May not be on our timetable and such and to our expectations of what we want. i would not give them a A but they did not fail either and i think we can grade them on what we expected ourseleves too. I love the damn thing and i do come home with the goods but i had my issues also, it's not perfect but i like to call it workable and if one went in the river tomorrow i would buy another.

 

John I guess it is all relative to your expectations too, hell I just bought a 5D for a job and yea it works but the files are just boring and flat and leave me with nothing to be excited about and I have to do more work to the raws than i do with the DMR or M8 files than i am used too. It's a little tough for me to answer because i like the M8 files so much that the little issues i overlook and just deal with but on the same token I have struggled for years with the early digital camera's with the files at least with the M8 the files are great.

 

On the warranty issues i honestly don't understand any of that legal stuff so should not assume anything from my end.