I hope Leica can come up with a unique medium format

[albireo_double]

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The reason I would consider the S4 is the impeccable service that I have been getting from Leica Shop in Vienna over the years. All my repairs handled by the shop, shipped to Wetzlar by them, prioritised in terms of time. Failed AF motors in S lenses repaired for free long after the expiry of even the extended warranty. I know the people there and they know me. It makes a difference to have a relationship like that. As for the speed of repairs, I understand that Leica allowed a meaningful part of their service team to retire during Covid, in order to save costs. And that they are finding it difficult to recruit people now, even apprentices. One would think that with the millions of immigrants into Germany since 2015 there would be a few talented and dedicated people to enter training. Apparently, better opportunities abound.

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[bilbrown]

On 6/20/2024 at 5:24 AM, BernardC said:

They've done it before. Every S, most digital M's, and the SL have used new exclusive sensors. 

However, whatever they choose for the S4, I doubt it will be bigger than the current S3 or Fuji/Hasselblad sensors (which have the same diameter). 

That was the "old" school of Leica business planning. They have fallen into the better part of the market with (likely Sony) digital assets with their own tweaked algorithm for color science and other points.

 

So, that said I doubt there will be anything other than the assets we already see on the market and likely something in competition with the Hasselblad over the Fuji GFX. What I would HOPE is that the Leica S4 would be as fast or close to as fast as the SL3, or minimally the Q3, have a few new lenses and then adapter for the older lenses with a built in "speed boost" for the mechanical imperfections of the S AF motors.

 

Until then and maybe beyond then, I keep my S 007 and maybe add a S3 when it comes down even further.

[lx1713]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:24 PM, BernardC said:

They've done it before. Every S, most digital M's, and the SL have used new exclusive sensors. 

However, whatever they choose for the S4, I doubt it will be bigger than the current S3 or Fuji/Hasselblad sensors (which have the same diameter). 

Actually, I don't see why not.

Nothing prevents Leica from having a 56x56mm sensor digital back that still allows the S lens lineup to be used "full frame" in a "cropped 1.3x" sensor format. Or "full frame" SL lenses in an even more cropped format on the 56x56mm sensor. Or attach it to the Sinar P3 to use with the older view camera film lenses. Sounds like a market upgrade path for any professional. 

I guess other than production limitations or cost which are not trivial matters of course. If it's just a digital back with brand new lenses that allows adaptors to S and SL, M and TL lenses. It would make the case to a professional as a substantial systems upgrade path that might actually be economically sensible. 

As someone who does a fair amount of image cropping in post, I would like to work with some margins with say 100mp or even 60mp in a 56x56mm sensor. The efficiency of not needing to rotate the sensor body is also a plus to the creative process.

A comparatively lower pixel density of 100mp in a 56x56mm sensor would be considered old tech by today's standards but is this feasible? Maybe they be partners with PhaseOne?

Edited October 27, 2024 by lx1713

[John McMaster]

34 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

Nothing prevents Leica from having a 56x56mm

Other than the fact that a photo quality sensor that size does not exist?

john

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, John McMaster said:

Other than the fact that a photo quality sensor that size does not exist?

john

If such a sensor were to exist it would be unbelievably expensive, probably putting the price of a camera and lens nudging 6 figures.

[lx1713]

The current manufacturing processes cannot do this as yet?

Thanks!

[lx1713]

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The PhaseOne sensors of 53.4 x 40mm are joined wafers then? Phase one had these sizes since 2011 so I assumed things may have moved along since then. 

Edited October 28, 2024 by lx1713

[irenedp]

I've started seeing rumours that Hasselblad is readying a 150 MP medium format, and that Phase will launch both a compact Fuji/Hassel type camera, and as well a (don't think it will be the same) a 250 MP back. The latter may still be atop of the market as the IQ4 is today, but two more very high resolution "compacts" by Hasselblad and Phase will complicate things a bit for the S4

[helged]

1 hour ago, irenedp said:

I've started seeing rumours that Hasselblad is readying a 150 MP medium format, and that Phase will launch both a compact Fuji/Hassel type camera, and as well a (don't think it will be the same) a 250 MP back. The latter may still be atop of the market as the IQ4 is today, but two more very high resolution "compacts" by Hasselblad and Phase will complicate things a bit for the S4

Beyond being a mirrorless body with it's characteristics, I would think that one of Leica's strongest selling points for S4 is back compatibility (via adapters) with S and SL lenses, possibly M-mount lenses as well. If so, the basic entrance ticket to S4 is the body (clearly), as well as one or several adapters. We can be quite certain that the rumoured, new set of medium format S-lenses will surpass the existing S-lenses in absolute, optical quality (also merging in digital correction to the optics); but the charm of the existing S-lenses will ensure quite some S4-users. Other vendors will likely be «ahead» of Leica when it comes to resolution, af, etc., but S4 will still have a user group. I belive...

[Jon Warwick]

18 hours ago, helged said:

Beyond being a mirrorless body with it's characteristics, I would think that one of Leica's strongest selling points for S4 is back compatibility (via adapters) with S and SL lenses, possibly M-mount lenses as well. If so, the basic entrance ticket to S4 is the body (clearly), as well as one or several adapters. We can be quite certain that the rumoured, new set of medium format S-lenses will surpass the existing S-lenses in absolute, optical quality (also merging in digital correction to the optics); but the charm of the existing S-lenses will ensure quite some S4-users. Other vendors will likely be «ahead» of Leica when it comes to resolution, af, etc., but S4 will still have a user group. I belive...

It will be interesting to see what emerges. I would assume the SL and M lenses on adapters would be useable in a 35mm full-frame crop mode, and bit like TL lenses on the SL body. I wonder how high the resolution will be on the S4's full medium format sensor? And what that implies for sensor resolution when cropped down for adapted 35mm full-frame lenses....even more than the existing 60mp on the SL3/M11 variants?

[helged]

34 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

It will be interesting to see what emerges. I would assume the SL and M lenses on adapters would be useable in a 35mm full-frame crop mode, and bit like TL lenses on the SL body. I wonder how high the resolution will be on the S4's full medium format sensor? And what that implies for sensor resolution when cropped down for adapted 35mm full-frame lenses....even more than the existing 60mp on the SL3/M11 variants?

Yes, my understanding is that the SL (and possibly M) lenses will turn into a 35mm full-frame crop mode (actually coming from a Leica representative, but plans in the past may not neccesarily materialise in reality). If Leica opens up for other crop modes than 2:3; we could also foresee a SL/M crop mode corresponding to a square 35x35mm crop - would be interesting! (pure speculation)

Regarding resolution: The current SL3/M11 sensors correspond to 75 MP on the existing S-sensor. So anything from there and (slightly) up, possibly 100-ish MP. But this clearly depends on what's available on the market (including cost, focus technology, stabilisation, global shutter, etc. etc.), the format of the S4-sensor (still 2:3, or a bit more square-ish?), what a Meastro (or whatever) processor is able to digest, etc.

[BernardC]

20 hours ago, irenedp said:

I've started seeing rumours that Hasselblad is readying a 150 MP medium format, and that Phase will launch both a compact Fuji/Hassel type camera, and as well a (don't think it will be the same) a 250 MP back. The latter may still be atop of the market as the IQ4 is today, but two more very high resolution "compacts" by Hasselblad and Phase will complicate things a bit for the S4

I expect that a "small medium format" 150MP sensor will be released by Fuji first, because they had an exclusivity period for the 100MP sensor. It really depends on whether or not Fuji wants to stump-up the cash for a few months of selling the only 150MP mirrorless medium format. You never know, Leica might be the brand that pays for early supply from Sony's foundry. Or they could get their sensor from a different source.

I'm not convinced that PhaseOne will join this market. Their current sensors are 50% bigger (approximately 6x4.5cm), so they would need a new lens line, and probably a new lens mount. They are a tiny company, the amount of investment needed is a factor.

[irenedp]

Agree with the fact that Phase are a tiny company. But said that, one with a significant share of market in the top professional segment both in fashion and landscape. 
Feels like a talk order to put in the market a mirrorless but they own Mamiya and its  factory. Hasselblad, an ailing company in 2017 were able to launch their mirrorless. 

The 250 MP sensor is a different story. Imagine it comes from Sony and would just require an upgrade on the IQ4 back, which is already overdue. The blue ring lenses are good enough. The Rodenstocks for the XT not so sure. I use analogic Schneider and Rodenstock lenses with the Cambo Wide RS and the IQ4; the result is somewhat wanting on the fringes of the image circle. I hear that the newer digital lenses are much better but haven’t tried so far. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by irenedp

[Stuart Richardson]

Leica tried to hold the S at 37mp and only relented when customers revolted a bit and then gave us a 64mp sensor. I don't think they are going to try to push the envelope with resolution, nor do I think they should (which is honestly a change for me, as I tend to prefer high resolution cameras). We are reaching a bit of an inflection point where the utility of ever higher resolutions is becoming less relevant for the vast majority of work. 100mp is roughly a 100x70cm print with no interpolation, meaning the quality that you would expect for high quality publication. With digital interpolation, which is better all the time, you can make wall sized prints with very minimal drop in quality. Meanwhile, screens increasingly dominate the image viewing environment, and most are below 8mp. Most posts on instagram max out at 1080x1350, for example. So let's say that the reason for higher resolution is almost entirely for printing massive prints or making massive crops. Then there is a component of the higher resolution being better for eliminating artifacts and giving smoother tonality. Those are great, but also largely lost when going down to small sizes. The resolution also puts tremendous stress on the imaging chain, requiring ever bigger and more expensive lenses, higher manufacturing tolerances, much higher burden on processing and storage and tends to impact dynamic range and high ISO performance. In any case, I suspect that Leica will be in the 100mp or below area with the S4, but the lenses will be more up to the challenge than those from other companies, therefore I expect that they will punch above their weight, as they have in the past. I think Leica is content to let the resolution market fall to Phase One (or Fuji), while they focus on lenses and UI/experience. Leica really knocked it out of the park with the S2 (in the context of when it came out) and I hope that they have it in them to do it again with the S4.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[BernardC]

The cropping argument always seems so strange to me, especially when we are talking about a camera that isn't marketed to beginners. It's extremely unlikely that I'll get my framing so wrong that I need twice the resolution just to salvage an image.

I would rather have good pixels than lots of pixels. That's where the S has always shined.

Story: an artist friend called me last month, he was nearby and had forgotten his SD cards at home. I lent him a card from my "downloaded and verified" stash. He called a few days later and said "what the h... are those pictures on the card? I've never seen anything that sharp!" It was the jpeg folder for a project I've been shooting with the S006. This person knows what he's looking at. He's exhibited, workshopped, juried, etc., and he is familiar with most of the visual artists working at a high level in Canada. The fact is that it's hard to beat the pixel-level vibrancy of an S with S lenses. I'm not saying that Leica should stick with 37 or 64 MP, but there is absolutely no need to offer the "most pixels" on the market, as long as the pixels are that good.

[irenedp]

I rarely crop much, don’t think the argument holds. but although one can print safely down to 180 ppi, i prefer to print higher and not interpolate. Depending on what you do, 64 is not enough. for instance, the image below, ready to deliver to a client, measures 1,09 x 1,37 cm i framed at a comfortable 240 ppi.  I carry the S3 as a backup but it is not just as good. For large artwork reproduction and other uses such as large canvasses, resolution is helpful. Not needed for most, though.  

 

 

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Edited November 19, 2024 by irenedp
typo

[davidmknoble]

I think another point in the really high MP revolution is that the S system has a mix of users - pro and hobby.  The higher the density of pixels, the better the technique has to be to avoid camera shake.

I have been using the Hasselblad X2D along side the S3 for about 9 months or so.  I think the Hasselblad lenses are changing for the worse though and while they are terribly sharp in the middle, the field curvature and other aberrations make them hard to use at mid level f/stops for landsacpe work, so I have only purchased the older lenses which still shine.  Yet, I only use it on a tripod or at fast shutter speeds (even with the stabilizing system).  100mp is my limit and honestly 64mp is great.  

The color has been the key and the tones for me.  The light has to be captured well enough that I can edit it for the print that I want.

So, I’d be happy with a mirrorless 64mp body, with 5-7 stop stability and lenses that perform like the SL system.  I would think the lens / color calibration would be the unique selling point.

[stevieg]

This conversation stimulated me to look at the S system again, but I can't find it on the Leica website!

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Tirpitz666]

Hi, here is a nice compendium about the wonderful lenses:

The Definitive Guide to Leica S Lenses

Bodies have been discontinued so they are indeed not present on the official product lineup.