On the APO fence

[o2mpx]

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Have the 50 and 135 APO, and have thoughts for a long time picking up the 35APO to replace the 35 Summarit 2.4. The 21 SEM and 90 Macro Elmar complete the kit with a M10-r. 

A second thought would always come up, given mid-aperture landscapes are 90% of what’s shot, and rarely shots are at wide open, will there be significant improvement at F8 between the 35 Summarit and the 35APO?
 

 

[MaticB]

Probably not. 35APO shine at 2.0 or 2.8 - on purpose. I have it, so I can confirm!

[Jeff S]

The user is generally the most critical factor in determining output.  Easy enough to demo or rent to see if you can detect meaningful differences given your personal workflow, from shot to final presentation.

Jeff

[Robert Blanko]

IMHO, the photos taken with my 35 APO show an unparalleled clarity that is noticeable also at f/5.6.

It was stunning to see this in my first landscape photos when zooming in and where my subjective „wow“ impression was that it even offers a slight edge over my 50 APO.

Edited June 11, 2024 by Robert Blanko

[01af]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb o2mpx:

... will there be significant improvement at f/8 between the 35 Summarit-M and the 35 Apo-Summicron-M?

Surprisingly—yes.

At the frame's center the difference is negligible. But only half-way between center and edge, the difference is significant, even at f/8 and 50 % view. The Apo-Summicron-M 35 mm Asph has somewhat better detail resolution and much better contrast which makes for a clearer image. The Summarit-M 35 mm Asph, in comparison, looks as if there was a very thin veil across the picture.

A very strong point of the Summarit is an extremely low inclination to flare. It used to be my best lens in this particular regard—not only among Leica M lenses but generally. Until the Apo-Summicron came along; this one flares even less.

The Apo-Summicron also has a weakness: at f/8, it vignettes significantly more than the Summarit. At f/2.8, the vignetting is almost equal to the Summarit's.

Edited June 11, 2024 by 01af

[Stuart Richardson]

Looking at the MTF, there is a clear difference in contrast across the frame, and particularly in the corners. This is most likely to come across as greater snap or crispness in the photo and its detail. That certainly tracks with what people are saying above. Whether that is worth the price is another question. One way to experiment would be to buy a voigtlander apo lanthar. It is a larger and heavier lens, but optically similar to the Leica version. If you notice a big enough difference you can sell both and get the Leica if you prefer the size and are willing to pay the premium.

[Cattoo]

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8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The user is generally the most critical factor in determining output

Why do people respond like this? This is largely a gear forum where people talk about gear. If you really believe that one’s lens choice is irrelevant, then why are you here? it’s also nonsense. Lenses do matter. 
 

Yes, we all know that technique is important and that superior photographers will get more out of a cheap lens than most of us will with an expensive one. I think everyone knows that. 
 

But people do come here to discuss gear. We have subforums for cameras and lenses - gear.

So why then when someone puts a question to a group that’s largely focused on gear will some people respond with comments like this? What purpose does it serve other than to imply that the person with the question is an incapable GAS crazed moron?

If you want to help. I mean, sincerely help, just answer his question. 

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Cattoo

[crons]

I've just bought the 35 f2 asph non-APO and I'm pretty blown away by the detail coming out of it. Maybe split the difference. Is it worth the apo expense. 

There is also the Voigtlander route. That would be an occasional use lens because of the size and there is vignetting at f2. But the image is going to be nearly identical as the Leica APO. 

If you're not 100% happy with the summarit and you dont want to mortgage the house, maybe the non-apo 35 ASPH is the way to go. 

I'm also on the M10R and from experience I can say the APO Voigtlander is for real. But as a special use lens not for a casual carry. 

Edited June 11, 2024 by crons

[patrickcolpron]

The 35 Summarit 2.4 is an excellent lens to start with, but the APO 35 is something else, great in very way. I could live with juts one lens, the APO 35 M is that one lens, it is well worth it in my opinion when shooting with mostly digital M cameras. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Cattoo said:

 

If you want to help. I mean, sincerely help, just answer his question. 

 

I did… you just selectively deleted the important recommendation that followed the excerpted sentence… demo or rent the lens (easy in the US where the OP resides).  We don’t know how the OP works, whether he prints or pixel peeps, and how he evaluates results. Best method is to test the gear IMO. Some are capable of extracting, or even seeing or caring about, fine distinctions; others not.

The 35 APO Summicron would cost a few hundred bucks to rent for 4 days, for comparison to the Summarit he already owns.  Since the cost to trade the latter for the former would likely result in an additional $7000 or so, that seems a bargain.  And the only way to really know the differences and perceived value.  Others can’t replicate his workflow and evaluation, let alone assess other factors such as ergonomics and handling that require personal use.

Jeff

Edited June 11, 2024 by Jeff S

[panoramer]

My tip would be to look on the www.Flickr.com website for the group "Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm ASPH." and look at the pictures that were taken with this lens. You will get a good impression of the image result.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/apo-summicron35mm/pool/

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by panoramer

[Cattoo]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I did… you just selectively deleted the important recommendation that followed the excerpted sentence… demo or rent the lens (easy in the US where the OP resides).  We don’t know how the OP works, whether he prints or pixel peeps, and how he evaluates results. Best method is to test the gear IMO. Some are capable of extracting, or even seeing or caring about, fine distinctions; others not.

The 35 APO Summicron would cost a few hundred bucks to rent for 4 days, for comparison to the Summarit he already owns.  Since the cost to trade the latter for the former would likely result in an additional $7000 or so, that seems a bargain.  And the only way to really know the differences and perceived value.  Others can’t replicate his workflow and evaluation, let alone assess other factors such as ergonomics and handling that require personal use.

Jeff

Fair enough.  And that's a good explanation. But you didn't say all of this in your first post. I myself rented the 35APO before buying it.  But I also searched this forum to see how other people who have much more expertise than I do would describe the difference between it and the 35 cron. This forum is a great resource for amateurs, even advanced ones.  But what makes it a great resources--at least for me--is the free expertise I can tap into for virtually any question on photography.  Some of you guys will write manuscript length responses to novice user questions.  But imagine how pointless this forum would be if everyone's response to questions over gear was: "only the user matters.  go rent it and figure it out for yourself."  

Anyway, not trying to argue.  

 

 

[Jeff S]

40 minutes ago, Cattoo said:

Fair enough.  And that's a good explanation. But you didn't say all of this in your first post. I myself rented the 35APO before buying it.  But I also searched this forum to see how other people who have much more expertise than I do would describe the difference between it and the 35 cron. This forum is a great resource for amateurs, even advanced ones.  But what makes it a great resources--at least for me--is the free expertise I can tap into for virtually any question on photography.  Some of you guys will write manuscript length responses to novice user questions.  But imagine how pointless this forum would be if everyone's response to questions over gear was: "only the user matters.  go rent it and figure it out for yourself."  

Anyway, not trying to argue.  

 

 

After 22k posts, others here have heard my recurring thoughts, so comments are frequently abbreviated these days. 😉

My intent is to help others if possible, and the greatest satisfaction I receive is when others reach out here or through PM to express thanks for assisting in their photo journey, often related to printing matters, which is another of my recurring themes.  Sometimes, though, the forum can just be entertaining, gear related or not.
 

That said, not much is new here on the forum, and while I support and encourage the continued dialogue, novice readers could also learn a lot by using the forum search capabilities… as you said you did (or, as I still do, search the web using Google and start with the words “Leica Forum,” followed by the topic…typically dozens of related forum discussions appear). That would make any subsequent interactions richer.
 

You’ve been here a short time, and I’d suggest holding back on personal rebukes; makes for more comfortable discussion.

Jeff

Edited June 12, 2024 by Jeff S

[TheEyesHaveIt]

Like the OP, I've recently been thinking of the APO, but I have a 35 Summilux FLE v1 and based on the comparisons I've seen, the APO doesn't bring enough "difference" or "uniqueness" to the table. I personally would lean more towards something like the Steel Rim re-issue, which clearly has something unique going on and is not duplicative (also a lot cheaper than the APO).

[rcusick]

The 35mm apo is definitely a league above anything else.  The question is where does one really notice the difference?   For me - street photography is meant to be gritty and more about the subject and context than image perfection.  Landscape on the other hand benefits from optical perfection.   Micro contrast, sharpness etc can really transform an image.  In short - I love my vintage lenses for urban settings.  I love my apo for landscape.  

[Cattoo]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

You’ve been here a short time,

Well, if 10 years is a short time…
Point taken though. 

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Cattoo said:

Well, if 10 years is a short time…
Point taken though. 

Averaging 11 posts a year…guess I got lucky.

Jeff

[250swb]

5 hours ago, rcusick said:

Landscape on the other hand benefits from optical perfection.   Micro contrast, sharpness etc can really transform an image.  In short - I love my vintage lenses for urban settings.  I love my apo for landscape.  

I think the word perfection takes use back to the very sensible idea that "The user is generally the most critical factor in determining output". Landscape photographers would increase their 'perfection' rate by using a tripod and not an APO lens waved around by an imperfect bipod. Until all the boxes are ticked perfection is still a dream. And until an M camera gets IBIS there isn't much point in an APO lens hand held, and while I don't have an APO lens putting an M lens of any type on the front of a camera with IBIS changes significantly for the better the ability to get the most out of it, whether shooting in dim light or wanting to use the optimum aperture for 'perfection'.

[hansvons]

18 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

The 35 Summarit 2.4 is an excellent lens to start with, but the APO 35 is something else, great in very way.

Interesting to understand a lens like the Summarit as a "starting lens". I wonder what category Voigtländer lenses are.

The elephant in the room: the 35mm APO is preposterously expensive. It’s so expensive that even people who have the funds and the appreciation for the results wouldn’t buy it simply because risking the lens in uncontrolled environments (could be as harmless as a train travel or a walk in the park) could lead to substantial loss of funds. 
I certainly belong to that group because I do appreciate special results and worked a lifetime with substantially more expensive cine lenses. But that were jobs, the gear was insured and people paid to watch it. My purse was never at risk.

However, the 35mm Summarit is a brilliant solution for this problem. It’s a virtually flare-free and sharp lens, ideal for landscape and similar photography. In any case, the results are top-notch and modern-looking.

Being freed from babying my cameras and lenses is an essential part for my style of photography. Your mileage may vary, of course, as wallets are diverse and expectations of lens performances too. 
 

18 hours ago, crons said:

I've just bought the 35 f2 asph non-APO and I'm pretty blown away by the detail coming out of it. Maybe split the difference. Is it worth the apo expense.

It’s certainly worth the expense. But it’s a character lens in the genealogy of its predecessors, starting with the 8-Elements Summicron. Like them, it flares nicely and shows a pronounced curvature at full aperture, plus it renders faces flatteringly on the flatter side with superb colour separation.  
But contrary to its predecessors, it vignettes less and is pretty sharp in the corners already at full aperture. In my eyes, the most Leica-esk ASPH 35mm.

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by hansvons

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[hansvons]

6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

often related to printing matters, which is another of my recurring themes.

A printer is the best investment in one's photography. I recently invested the equivalent of a Noctilux or APO Summicron by purchasing a Canon Pro 4600 and a few rolls of proper paper. 

Getting on this train will fundamentally change one’s view on pixels, sensor resolution, and lenses. Content will jump to the foreground, colour separation and contrast too, the editing process will become pivotal, texture a big thing, so will be shadows and highlights, and the question why to press the shutter above everything else. 

Edited June 12, 2024 by hansvons