Bright-line frames

[leicaaaa]

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Hello!  My first post

I have a 50 mm lens which shows the 50/75 lines but I have noticed when toggling to the 28/90 lines it doesn't return to the 50/75 lines properly; instead I get mostly 50/75 lines with some 28/90 lines showing.

Toggling to the 35/135 lines works fine and shows the proper 50/75 lines afterwards.

Is this normal or could something be wrong?  I guess the mechanism isn't working entirely as expected and spending a few minutes working the toggle might fix it but I have tried this as well as re-seating the lens without any change.

Thanks.

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[Tom R]

Which body? Finders, at least in the models I use (M4, M4-P, M3, M2) have their “charms.” I haven’t used M5, M6, or any of the digital bodies so I couldn’t say. I recall some conversations about the difference between the M6 and M4-P finders in terms of preferences, but what you’re describing might be something that could be fixed by a CLA? Of course, that mightn’t be the case if we’re talking about digital Leica M bodies, but I’m sure that many members of this forum will provide additional insights in this regard.

[leicaaaa]

20 minutes ago, Tom R said:

Which body?

M11 Monochrom

It was used but looks brand new.

First owner may have done something to it possibly and decided to return it.

 

[jdlaing]

What lens?

[lct]

Welcome to the forum 🙂
You may try to bring up the 50/75 framelines with the field selector (14) and see what happens.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[adan]

It is not normal - but not completely uncommon.

The frameline mechanism (since the M6 sometime) has "detents" and a tabbed hairspring, that are supposed to "click" the moving mask into exactly the right position for each lens type.

But sometimes the spring gets weak, or collects some sticky dust or grunge, or the exact position of the masks or detents (to a fraction of a mm) is imperfect.

(or, to jdlaings idea, sometime a given lens does not mount all the way to the last fraction of a mm, without a little extra force.)

It will NOT affect the actual framing, or pictures otherwise.

It comes down to the usual Leica dilemma - can one suppress one's perfectionism sufficiently to just ignore it, or is one willing to lose the use of the camera for several months, to get such a small detail perfected? (Independent serviceman Don Goldberg may be faster than Leica - although he's somewhat swamped these days also - you'd have to inquire what he can do, and how long he will need to do it).

I think one of my M10s does that (or a similar tiny mismatch) but I can't even recall which one right now. My brain just filters out such things when shooting.

 

Edited May 8, 2024 by adan

[leicaaaa]

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13 hours ago, jdlaing said:

What lens?

Voigtlander 50/2 APO -- what a lens!

 

[leicaaaa]

12 hours ago, lct said:

Welcome to the forum 🙂
You may try to bring up the 50/75 framelines with the field selector (14) and see what happens.

Thank you 

I am using the field selector to toggle the frame lines and that is when the issue appears.

[leicaaaa]

12 hours ago, adan said:

It is not normal - but not completely uncommon.

The frameline mechanism (since the M6 sometime) has "detents" and a tabbed hairspring, that are supposed to "click" the moving mask into exactly the right position for each lens type.

But sometimes the spring gets weak, or collects some sticky dust or grunge, or the exact position of the masks or detents (to a fraction of a mm) is imperfect.

(or, to jdlaings idea, sometime a given lens does not mount all the way to the last fraction of a mm, without a little extra force.)

It will NOT affect the actual framing, or pictures otherwise.

It comes down to the usual Leica dilemma - can one suppress one's perfectionism sufficiently to just ignore it, or is one willing to lose the use of the camera for several months, to get such a small detail perfected? (Independent serviceman Don Goldberg may be faster than Leica - although he's somewhat swamped these days also - you'd have to inquire what he can do, and how long he will need to do it).

I think one of my M10s does that (or a similar tiny mismatch) but I can't even recall which one right now. My brain just filters out such things when shooting.

Thank you, that was very helpful,.

I am happy to embrace any imperfections the body has as it makes it unique and adds a little character.  Ultimately, as long as I am able to engage workable frame lines albeit with some quirks it is perfectly usable as-is.

I was most concerned whether it might get worse over time or not engage frame lines properly at at all for other lenses.  I should see if I can get to a store and test some out along with other focal lengths -- perhaps it is just this non-Leica lens.

 

[Strmbrg]

29 minutes ago, leicaaaa said:

Voigtlander 50/2 APO -- what a lens!

 

Hm, then the lens rather than the camera might be the cause of the issue. Or is that answer already mentioned? (I'm a rather "sloppy reader" - even in short threads...)

[leicaaaa]

2 hours ago, Strmbrg said:

Hm, then the lens rather than the camera might be the cause of the issue. Or is that answer already mentioned? (I'm a rather "sloppy reader" - even in short threads...)

I had considered that -- I'll pop to a store and see if I can try a Lecia 50 mm lens -- thanks

[lct]

3 hours ago, leicaaaa said:

Thank you 

I am using the field selector to toggle the frame lines and that is when the issue appears.

Lens is not the culprit then.

[Strmbrg]

Hm, by the way... I have never used the frame-selector, other than for just twiddling with it.
What is the real purpose of it in real practice? Shure, I know it is meant to show you which lens to use for a certain "shot". But do anyone use it for that in practice? 
If I have - as me - a 28, a 50 and a 90mm (thats all) in my bag (and the filled bag with me), I have never even thought of using this "pre-viewer" before deciding which lens to change to.
And if I should have say 28, 35 and 50 instead - it is even then not very useful. At least it will not contribute to the decision in any way more than what I can conclude all by myself.
 

PS
The frame for the mounted lens is of course a completely different and important aspect and very useful.
Maybe I have missed something important regarding this function. 🙂

[lct]

23 minutes ago, Strmbrg said:

[...] What is the real purpose of it in real practice? Shure, I know it is meant to show you which lens to use for a certain "shot". But do anyone use it for that in practice? [...]

I do. Last time it happened to me i had a 50 on the M11 and i hesitated between 35 and 28. Could be between 75 and 90 too. Useful accessory i've been using since the seventies and i do miss it on the M240. YMMV.

[leicaaaa]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Lens is not the culprit then.

Okay, good to know, thanks.

I try some other lenses to ensure their frame lines work okay and if so that's good enough for me!

 

[Strmbrg]

52 minutes ago, lct said:

I do. Last time it happened to me i had a 50 on the M11 and i hesitated between 35 and 28. Could be between 75 and 90 too. Useful accessory i've been using since the seventies and i do miss it on the M240. YMMV.

Okay, for me it is nearly always a matter of changing the shape of the image to get it right. Actually never that I am satisfied with it as a whole. Even when I used zooms and DSLR, there was not at all enough to just zoom to get something right. So, changing the shape of the image is nearly always necessary. But then not mainly to reduce the original 28-view to a 35 or so, but because the composition depends on the proportions of width vs. height. 
Besides, the detail-quality of both lenses and sensors nowadays is much more than enough good to allow using a 28mm for a "35mm final result", I think. Otherwise of course in the days of slides... 🙂

[lct]

1 minute ago, Strmbrg said:

[...] Besides, the detail-quality of both lenses and sensors nowadays is much more than enough good to allow using a 28mm for a "35mm final result", I think [...]

Because you crop your images in PP i guess but i do it as less as i can since what i like in photography is composition in the first place and i'm not good at composing with cropping in mind. But again YMMV.

[Strmbrg]

51 minutes ago, lct said:

Because you crop your images in PP i guess but i do it as less as i can since what i like in photography is composition in the first place and i'm not good at composing with cropping in mind. But again YMMV.

Okay! But isn't it very often so, that the image you want to create, with the "components" in it, nearly never corresponds with the aspect ratio of just 3:2? Often I want to get rid of something disturbing at the edge, or I want to reduce the amount of sky, because it doesn't mean anything important to the final image I want to achieve. 
If I couldn't do that aspect ratio-adjustment, it would be very difficult to get what I want, stuck with just a choice of lenses and the given 3:2 (or whatever it can be). 🙂

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[lct]

56 minutes ago, Strmbrg said:

Okay! But isn't it very often so, that the image you want to create, with the "components" in it, nearly never corresponds with the aspect ratio of just 3:2? Often I want to get rid of something disturbing at the edge, or I want to reduce the amount of sky, because it doesn't mean anything important to the final image I want to achieve. 

Happens to me too, i was just trying to explain why  the field selector is a useful accessory for me because you wanted to know if anyone use it in practice. I just use it the same way on M11 in 2024 as on my first M4 in 1971 and the same as on my other Ms since then, bar the M240. 

[marchyman]

3 hours ago, Strmbrg said:

But do anyone use it for that in practice?

Might depend upon what you are used to doing.  My first M was an M 262 which did not have the field selector lever.  When I got the M11 I played with the lever a bit and then mostly forgot it was there.  However, I only use one of two lens with my M, a 35 and a 75.  Perhaps I'd use the selector if I had more lens to choose from.