New (small-ish) Lumix FF camera

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, Richardgb said:

collaboration, or competition for its own sake? Where does tha balance lie?

A common standard and technical cooperation. Each brand clearly has its own identity.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, Richardgb said:

but is the L-mount alliance one of collaboration, or competition for its own sake?

It’s both. Perhaps Sigma will sell one less FP, but I bet this camera pairs nicely with the 45mm

[JoshuaR]

I'm coming at the S9 from the perspective of a hobbyist—neither a videographer nor a content creator. I just want to make nice family videos. I'm looking to do better than the quality of my phone, but don't want to own a big and fancy hybrid camera or cinema camera. I've thought about getting an SL2-S for video, but I like my Ms and am basically a photographer and I want my Ms to remain my everyday equipment. The hybrid and cinema cameras are too much for me. I'm using a teeny Sony ZV-1 II right now for video, and it's fine, but the interface is clunky and the quality of the footage is only OK.

What I've wanted for a while now is a simple, small, fun camera that takes better quality footage with small interchangeable lenses. I was looking at the ZV-E10, but the thing is that the hardware is only part of the equation for me. There's also the whole color grading and editing process. I don't want to fuss with color grading on a computer; I want to produce nice looking footage right on the camera. And then I want to transfer it wirelessly to my phone to edit later, probably in iMovie or something similarly basic. I also want this to be the kind of camera I can just throw in a pocket of my bag. I don't really need an EVF for video, but I would like a decent internal mic with an option for an external one. Bonus points if I can adapt my M lenses to it and use it for snapshot photography, too, in the style of a Ricoh GR III or IIIx. 

So it kind of seems like the S9 is exactly what I'm looking for. I pre-ordered it with the little pancake lens, but then I realized that I can probably use my 28mm Summaron as a video lens and make the camera even smaller—that'll be interesting! I have no idea if this camera will resonate with lots of potential users, but for me it seems almost like the designers read my mind.

[tomasis7]

27 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

I'm coming at the S9 from the perspective of a hobbyist—neither a videographer nor a content creator. I just want to make nice family videos. I'm looking to do better than the quality of my phone, but don't want to own a big and fancy hybrid camera or cinema camera. I've thought about getting an SL2-S for video, but I like my Ms and am basically a photographer and I want my Ms to remain my everyday equipment. The hybrid and cinema cameras are too much for me. I'm using a teeny Sony ZV-1 II right now for video, and it's fine, but the interface is clunky and the quality of the footage is only OK.

What I've wanted for a while now is a simple, small, fun camera that takes better quality footage with small interchangeable lenses. I was looking at the ZV-E10, but the thing is that the hardware is only part of the equation for me. There's also the whole color grading and editing process. I don't want to fuss with color grading on a computer; I want to produce nice looking footage right on the camera. And then I want to transfer it wirelessly to my phone to edit later, probably in iMovie or something similarly basic. I also want this to be the kind of camera I can just throw in a pocket of my bag. I don't really need an EVF for video, but I would like a decent internal mic with an option for an external one. Bonus points if I can adapt my M lenses to it and use it for snapshot photography, too, in the style of a Ricoh GR III or IIIx. 

So it kind of seems like the S9 is exactly what I'm looking for. I pre-ordered it with the little pancake lens, but then I realized that I can probably use my 28mm Summaron as a video lens and make the camera even smaller—that'll be interesting! I have no idea if this camera will resonate with lots of potential users, but for me it seems almost like the designers read my mind.

I like the camera a lot as well. I could use an external optical viewfinder from the year 1920 or 1950. The 50mm one is called SBOOI. 

Some might hate fixed 26mm aperture and manual focus. I have always been using manual focus and F8. I've been using Rollei 35, Leica IIC, etc. 

Small lenses feel awkward on the SL body but work nicely on a smaller 35mm body. I hope Leica is going to do something. 

[costa43]

It’s an evf and mechanical shutter away from being a fun camera for stills as the LUT thing is cool. As it stands it’s weird, big lenses and composing off the back of a screen seem strange for photography (for me) and it’s not got amazing video specs either. Misfire imo. 

Edited May 24, 2024 by costa43

[Simone_DF]

The Ricoh GRIII has no EVF and not even a tilt/flip screen and after 5 years it’s still in the top 20 cameras sold. Sure it’s smaller and fits in the pocket of your pants, but it’s also APS-C. 
I think this camera will be successful. I’ll probably get one in a few months. 
Paired with the 45 or 50mm Sigma, to me it’s the  Q3 with a 50mm that Leica never released. 

[BernardC]

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18 hours ago, Al Brown said:

With 4:2:0 10-bit internal recording not really a video monster... but I do like the LUT upload and opacity options, reminds me of film simulation gimmicks for jpegs found in digital Fuji. The camera is clearly (says so in press release) aimed at vloggers and other social media content creators living the "fast publish" life.

4:2:2 is only really needed for blue screen (compositing). Anyone doing that kind of work probably can afford to pay a little more for an S5 or a Blackmagic.

I like the term "fast publish". It describes what most creatives are doing these days. I've worked fast-publish gigs, and they are exhilarating. The instant feedback is quite addictive, even if often misleading.

[BernardC]

27 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Only those that choose to. 😊

The workflow reminds me of our student paper. You get a few minutes to shoot, rush across campus to process, pick one neg, make a quick print, and hand it in. I mostly worked on my own "art," but the photo editors knew me, and they knew where to find me if a last-minute photo was needed: I was either at the student darkroom, or at the pub downstairs!

[JoshuaR]

Why do I have so many thoughts about the S9???? I have no idea, but here they are.

A couple of weeks ago, some family friends gave our baby daughter a cool/romper as a gift. This morning, my wife wanted to take a picture of me holding the baby while she wore the romper, to share with the friends. I reached for my camera. “No no,” she said, “I’ll just use my phone.” She took five or six photos, selected one, and immediately texted it over.

Is it a nice photo? Yes. Is it obviously lacking in image quality? Honestly, yes. It’s kind of crunchy looking and the colors are bad. “It’s not a great photo, but it’ll work,” was my wife’s judgment.

Now, suppose we’d had an S9 in easy reach. She could’ve snapped a photo with a “real time LUT”—I wish they’d picked a more plain-English name, like color profile—and then the camera could have automatically transferred it to her phone, since the LUMIX Lab app offers fast automatic transfer over WiFi. And then she could have reviewed the photos on the phone almost instantly and texted one. The whole thing would’ve taken maybe a minute longer than if she’d used the phone camera, and the result would have been dramatically better.

Watching the reviews of the S9, I’ve been really struck by how much of the discussion centers on videographers, YouTubers, vloggers, etc., who are supposed to be creating “content” with the camera and sharing it on social media. Those are the people whom Panasonic invited to Japan. But while I don’t know a single influencer or content creator in real life, I do know dozens of parents who are regularly taking photos of their kids and families and sharing them within their intimate circle, sometimes multiple times a day. They do all of this on their phones. This is Memorial Day weekend here in the U.S., and I expect to see tons of people taking photos of their families at the beach and at the various parades and events that are happening in my town. While many of them are happy with their photos, many are not. With some frequency, other parents look at my photos or ask me about my cameras and say, “I should get a real camera.” They’re stopped not so much by the expense but by the complexity of the devices, the difficulty of choosing one, and the work involved in getting the images off the camera, processing them, and putting them out into the world.

Could the S9 appeal to these regular-people photographers? I feel it’s almost there, but I think there are still lots of obstacles. I think the marketing for the camera is good: the slogan is “Shoot, Edit, Share,” but with the word “Edit” crossed out. Still, I think the vocabulary around LUTs is opaque to normal people, who don’t know what a LUT is; calling them something like “looks” would’ve been better. Also, they should’ve launched the camera with the tiny zoom lens, not the weird pancake lens, which regular people will seriously struggle to use. And they should be showcasing how the camera can be used to capture ordinary life, the way most people use smartphones; we should be seeing a video about how the camera can be used to capture a family vacation or a kid’s graduation or something to that effect. The pros and YouTube-creator types  who are reviewing it now will naturally nitpick the camera to death, because they don’t need the simplicity it offers and would rather own a bigger, more full-featured camera; it’s just a fun toy to them, it’s not solving an actual problem they have. Finally, while the camera is cool looking, I don’t think it’s cool-looking enough. I think the whole business with the SmallRig grip is a misstep; regular people don’t want to add grips to their cameras, they just want to buy a camera that’s nice to hold.

Still, I think the S9 is on the right track in terms of directly addressing a lot of the problems that prevent smartphone users from trying dedicated cameras. If I were designing the successor to this camera, I’d put three big buttons on the back: “Look,” “Edit,” and “Share.” The “Look” button would let me choose a color profile. The “Edit” button would use some suite of A.I. algorithms to level horizons and correct exposures in photos, and also to trim video clips, or even collections of clips, to just the good parts. (Insta360 offers this in its phone app, and in my experience it works pretty well.) And the “Share” button would allow you to text or upload the finished image or video directly to your phone or to a platform of your choice. I’d communicate in the marketing that this was a truly connected camera, unlike all the other cameras out there.

Final thought: If you read photo forums, you can get this idea that smartphone photographers lack the attention span or motivation to use a “real” camera, and are self-involved narcissists obsessed with promoting themselves on TikTok. As a result, there’s often an undercurrent of dismissiveness when cameras like the S9 are reviewed, because the presumed target market for the camera is callow youth. But actually, many smartphone photographers are just regular people motivated by affection to photograph the people and places in their lives. So I’d be getting my camera into the hands of some mom bloggers, rather than bearded dudes with tattoos who want to do street photography. 

Tl;dr: I really like this camera, and I hope it points the way forward for more connected cameras. But I think the marketing and design of the S9 is like thirty per cent off target, and the people who would really get value out of the S9 simply won’t hear about it.

[tomasis7]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

4:2:2 is only really needed for blue screen (compositing). Anyone doing that kind of work probably can afford to pay a little more for an S5 or a Blackmagic.

I like the term "fast publish". It describes what most creatives are doing these days. I've worked fast-publish gigs, and they are exhilarating. The instant feedback is quite addictive, even if often misleading.

S9 supports 4:2:2 at 4k format

[tomasis7]

  

17 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

 

Tl;dr: I really like this camera, and I hope it points the way forward for more connected cameras. But I think the marketing and design of the S9 is like thirty per cent off target, and the people who would really get value out of the S9 simply won’t hear about it.

X100 VI is popular because of the complete lens kit. Same for Sony. Many beginners would not care whether APS-C or 35mm sensor. It is about brand recognition. 

S9 needs a few good small pancake lenses. 1500$ is a bit rich for a family or casual shooters. 

S9 is perfect for those who have small tiny M lenses. Advanced photogs care about the 35mm sensor. 

So it is a bit confusing marketing as the Petapixel reviewers would say

Edited May 24, 2024 by tomasis7

[JoshuaR]

1 minute ago, tomasis7 said:

  

X100 VI is popular because of the complete lens kit. Same for Sony. Many beginners would not care whether APS-C or 35mm sensor. It is about brand recognition. 

S9 needs a few good small pancake lenses. 1500$ is a bit rich for a family or casual shooters. 

S9 is perfect for those who have small tiny M lenses. Advanced photogs care about the 35mm sensor. 

So it is a bit confusing marketing as the Petapixel reviewers would say

I totally agree.

One thing I found interesting is how many regular people I know seem to own action cameras and use them to make private, family photos and videos. But it makes sense once you realize that (a) action cams are relatively cheap, (b) they’re tightly integrated with your phone with superb software, and (c) it’s possible to just buy the complete kit and be done with it, making the choices easy. So If I were marketing my version of the S9, it would have a limited but complete and affordable lens kit available at launch. Maybe two tiny zooms (one wide-normal, one tele) and a single fast-normal prime. And I’d allow buyers to purchase the whole kit at once.

And while I’m thinking about it, I’d also market a small photo printer that prints 4 x 6, and I’d allow printing directly from the camera.

[tomasis7]

7 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

External

No, it says internal 

[tomasis7]

14 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

 

And while I’m thinking about it, I’d also market a small photo printer that prints 4 x 6, and I’d allow printing directly from the camera.

I agre..

Id love a small printer too. I think we are looking for a digital LOMO market lol

[tomasis7]

I looked further and was impressed.

With Ninja Atomos and Blackmagic Assist you can record 12 bit 6k prores raw and own blackmagic raw. 

 

Edited May 24, 2024 by tomasis7

[BernardC]

4 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The sensor readout is also slow, it is only electronic shutter and this banding issues and skewing of fast moving subjects, plus no flash sync for photos.

There's a menu setting to detect and avoid banding. I don't know if it's turned-on by default, but it should be.

We can discuss what this entry-level camera doesn't do, let's look at the positives. It's a solution for people who aren't satisfied with smartphones. I've stopped counting the times that vloggers felt the need to apologize for smartphone footage. Things got really bad last fall when several people I follow were mad at Apple for the iPhone 14. The sound is terrible, the images are pants, and stabilization is useless. They felt ripped-off, and rightfully so.

The Sony ZV cams have been popular with creators, but they don't hold a candle to the S9. And they cost more (for now). Canon has a new vlogger cam, but it's fixed-lens and feels more  like a failed action camera.

Will the S9 be a hit? I have no idea, but it could be the right product at the right time. Media is ultra-competitive right now, and there are very few high-quality camera options that are small and that have great video.

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

My mistake for this oversight.

😊

I think we agree that this camera isn't exactly what we would understand as a cinema camera, even an affordable little one. It's definitely not an FX3. But in its own right, it has a lot of things I like, especially the IBIS. Still, I wonder whether this is a blue pause for a similar Leica offering. 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, hansvons said:

I wonder whether this is a blue pause for a similar Leica offering. 

With an EVF it would be a great CL replacement

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[250swb]

If you can do without an EVF what's not to like? I think with IBIS the previous worries about stability and holding a camera away from the face are now a moot point, the downside still being reflections and bright light overwhelming the LCD view. I could live with it as a landscape camera, I have the adapter for M to L, and it's a tempting price point.

Edited May 24, 2024 by 250swb

[tomasis7]

14 minutes ago, 250swb said:

 the downside still being reflections and bright light overwhelming the LCD view. 

I thought about it. 

Screen hood? A bit clumsy but it would be like a medium-format camera as Rolleiflex or Hasselblad

My Samsung S23 Oled screen is impressive in the sunlight. Well, they could adapt OLED in the next version. 

Edited May 24, 2024 by tomasis7