APO Lens AF Performance on the SL3

[la1402]

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1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As others mentioned, the APO lenses are moving more glass about. B

Really? Its only two fairly small lenses than move, and they don't need to move a long distance.

[helged]

47 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Really? Its only two fairly small lenses than move, and they don't need to move a long distance.

It’s also about the focus motors that are being used. Sigma 70-200 f2.8 DG DN has a  f a s t  focus mechanism.

In addition, some lenses have a distance limitation to be set by the user, this setting will also speed the focussing (for the Sigma zoom the focus intervals are less than 3 m, more than 3 m, and the full distanse range).

Edited March 28, 2024 by helged

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 3/28/2024 at 6:48 AM, la1402 said:

Some Friends of Leica claim this is due to much more glass that needs to be moved. But Canon,Nikon and Sony build lenses with lots of glass and fast AF, so I remain unconvinced. 

With the ultra fast Sony etc. lenses they use more than one focus motor to get that speed. A couple of the big super tele zooms have three or four motors. Both the APO and non APO SL Summicron lenses have a single motor so the glass weight is the difference.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 3/27/2024 at 5:49 PM, helged said:

....... The SL non-APOs are rebranded+ Panasonic lenses, with fast AF........

Well, they're made in a different factory on different continenets from each other...

It would be more correct to say they share a lens design. But they are not a simple rebadge.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I agree the APO's focus somewhat slower. But for their application I don't see it as an issue. I think they're quite snappy although not as fast as the tiny Sigmas or the non APO's I also use. For the situations where I want ultra fast AF an APO Summicron is not the lens I'd have on the camera. It'd be a zoom or a super tele (birds). Maybe that's because I still remember my Canon EF 85mm 1.2L (version 1).

Gordon

[la1402]

18 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

With the ultra fast Sony etc. lenses they use more than one focus motor to get that speed. A couple of the big super tele zooms have three or four motors. Both the APO and non APO SL Summicron lenses have a single motor so the glass weight is the difference.

Gordon

Yes  I also believe it’s the motors that Leica chose are the difference.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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16 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Yes  I also believe it’s the motors that Leica chose are the difference.

Possibly but you only have to go back a single generation on some Sony glass to see a reduction in AF speed. And even the old but current 85mm 1.4 is much slower than any APO Summicron. The Canon 85L 1.2 still isn't particlarly quick as it's slowed down for accuracy. The SUmmicrons aint quick but neither are all the other brands. 35's and 50's are ultra fast but that changes with longer lenses.

It is apparent that especially Sony is throwing everything at increasing focus speed.

Gordon

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Well, they're made in a different factory on different continenets from each other...

It would be more correct to say they share a lens design. But they are not a simple rebadge.

Gordon

Yes. And surprisingly they also share the same filter thread, the same dimensions, the same “shape”, and the same weight (if we account for metal vs polycarbonate difference).
Incredible, must be a coincidence. 

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Yes. And surprisingly they also share the same filter thread, the same dimensions, the same “shape”, and the same weight (if we account for metal vs polycarbonate difference).
Incredible, must be a coincidence. 

Isn't that what Gordon wrote? They share significant parts of their mechanical design, as one would expect, but they aren't simple re-badges. As you point-out, construction is different, weight and material choice are different.

Others have also pointed-out that measured optical performance is different (even if some choose to wave away that difference as a sampling error, as-if Leica and Panasonic didn't know how to measure MTF).

It's a never-ending debate in Leica circles: they've worked with other prestigious optical companies for nearly 90 years now (Xenon 50mm 1936). I suspect that the "debate" will still be raging long after all of us are gone. What's different this time? Nothing, as far as I can tell. Leica took an existing design, optimized it to suit their own requirements, and sold it to satisfied customers.

I can understand why a collector might value, for example, a 15mm/3.5 sold by Leica, Contax, Rollei, or Pentax, differently. Many collectors might want to own all versions (and sub-versions). For the  "ASPH" Summicrons, that debate seems premature. The Leica and Lumix versions are available new, and they are clearly built differently. We can each choose between them, depending on our own priorities. Who knows, maybe the Lumix will be considered more collectable in the future?

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

What's different this time?

That you can buy the same lens cheaper by choosing the Panasonic badge instead pf the Leica badge 

[BernardC]

15 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That you can buy the same lens cheaper by choosing the Panasonic badge instead pf the Leica badge 

But it's not the same. As you've already pointed out, one has a metal skin, the other is polycarbonate. They also test different on MTF machines. The question is how much those differences are worth to you. Every customer will have a different answer, and the price difference varies a lot depending on where you are, what else you buy at the same time, your relationship with the dealer, etc. 

[Simone_DF]

Yes, you’re right. They are 99.999% the same, but if that 0.001% of difference is worth something to someone, more power to them. 

[LocalHero1953]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:58 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

I wish you hadn't posted this! I've been trying to ignore this lens for a while now. I have enough portrait lenses and don't need another - my Apo-Summicron-SL 90 is even up for sale (I use the 75mm more). The Sigma looks like it would be a good complement to the Apo-Summicron-SL 75, but it is far too cheap - used versions are available from dealers for around £600. What can I do?

I succumbed and bought one, used. From the description there's no box and no hood, but the former doesn't worry me, and the latter is readily available new (at Sigma, not Leica, prices)

[Simone_DF]

34 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I succumbed and bought one, used. From the description there's no box and no hood, but the former doesn't worry me, and the latter is readily available new (at Sigma, not Leica, prices)

Would love to see some comparison. Or maybe not, or I’ll end up buy one too

[geronimosan]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

But it's not the same. As you've already pointed out, one has a metal skin, the other is polycarbonate. They also test different on MTF machines. The question is how much those differences are worth to you. Every customer will have a different answer, and the price difference varies a lot depending on where you are, what else you buy at the same time, your relationship with the dealer, etc. 

Don't feed the trolls. 

Whenever I read "rebadging" comments, it's usually accompanied by a pricing comment, e.g., "it's exactly the same rebadged lens but cheaper!".  I'd hazard a guess that these comments really stem from people wanting the Leica product, may not be able to afford it, and are spending all their time trying to justify, to themselves and to us, why their resultant purchase is exactly like a Leica product.  That's not to say other brands and products aren't great - they are - but it's an oversimplification and misunderstanding of how technology works and how different companies use technology to produce different and unique results and products in order to satisfy a person's justifications.

[Olaf_ZG]

Can we please stop talking about the 85… ? I try not to buy any new lenses for the upcoming months. 

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

But it's not the same. As you've already pointed out, one has a metal skin, the other is polycarbonate. They also test different on MTF machines. The question is how much those differences are worth to you. Every customer will have a different answer, and the price difference varies a lot depending on where you are, what else you buy at the same time, your relationship with the dealer, etc. 

Basically I prefer polycarbonate. It wears better and is much lighter, without losing out on strength or stability. Leica lenses are not tested on MTF machines - the curves are calculated which in general produces a "better" result.

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

and the price difference varies a lot depending on where you are, what else you buy at the same time, your relationship with the dealer, etc. 

I suppose we must have an affair with the dealer to get a better price?

I got the 50 Lumix S, because the Leica lens briked on firmware update, It was $350

I saw many reviews on these lenses from Panasonic, everyone said that the 50 is overperforming for the price, in the same category are the 18 and 85
In comparison, Sigma is better on the 24 and 65mm lenses.

But I think if I would choose today, I would buy the Sigma 50 1.2

 

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I suppose we must have an affair with the dealer to get a better price?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant! The truth is finally revealed 😀

Isn't it the same with most products, in any category? A dealer that knows you as a regular customer will give you a better deal than they would to someone they've never seen before, who will waste their time, and who would drive an extra hundred miles to save a dollar. One local dealer, who retired many years ago, used to kick such customers out of his store. He had 50 years in the business, he could tell who was there to waste his time. Regular customers would get great deals, usually better than you could find at the big mail order stores.

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[Photoworks]

48 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant! The truth is finally revealed 😀

Isn't it the same with most products, in any category? A dealer that knows you as a regular customer will give you a better deal than they would to someone they've never seen before, who will waste their time, and who would drive an extra hundred miles to save a dollar. One local dealer, who retired many years ago, used to kick such customers out of his store. He had 50 years in the business, he could tell who was there to waste his time. Regular customers would get great deals, usually better than you could find at the big mail order stores.

aren't you paying more if you have to buy dinner first?