S4 with L- and M-mount lenses

[helged]

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“The medium format, which has been discontinued but will have a successor within two years... So, it will be a hybrid medium format with a new mount and a new range of optics, for which adapters can be used to mount SL lenses, M lenses, and the entire range of Leica lenses.”

https://leicarumors.com/2024/03/14/new-leica-medium-format-camera-confirmed-again.aspx/

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[irenedp]

It is good news, but it is funny that they don’t mention the S lenses which are the only ones which have an image circle adequate to the sensor. 

Nor other mf lenses. 

I understand the “marketing” intention to expand the customer base but I don’t think it would work properly 

 

[tomasis7]

looks very similar to SL.

 

S mother and its SL3's baby 🤣

[BernardC]

31 minutes ago, irenedp said:

It is good news, but it is funny that they don’t mention the S lenses which are the only ones which have an image circle adequate to the sensor. 

Nor other mf lenses.

S lens compatibility was confirmed months ago, I think it's implied by "the entire range of Leica lenses." What's new is M and L-mount compatibility. We've speculated about this in the past, but it's good to get confirmation.

I assume existing Leica adapters for other MF brands would still work. Mechanical adapters (Hasselblad V, Pentax 67, Mamiya 645) will be fine, for obvious reasons, so the question is "will Leica continue to support Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses?" Both of these systems are discontinued, and I'm sure the adapters haven't been made for years.

[helged]

It's also interesting whether Leica S4 may come with a more quadratic sensor format than the traditional, Leica classical and Leica invented 2:3 ratio. A more quadratic sensor, pluss the ability to adapt all S, L, M, R and what-do-you-have lenses, would be something...

[Jon Warwick]

For me, the S4 would be very compelling if it's a universal EVF camera for all Leica lenses, ie, M and SL lenses, legacy S lenses, new S lenses. 

Personally, if the S4 camera body ended up not hugely bigger than an SL2/SL3, it's not quite so clear to me why I'd own an SL camera if the S4 ended up as a 1-hit system that provides both medium format + full frame?  Maybe it would still boil down more to cost, size differences, speed, etc?

Separately I'd imagine the Q and Ms would remain distinct still due to their ongoing compactness, light weight (even lighter since the M11 construction came out) when compared to anything S or SL related.

I certainly agree with heldged re interest in whether the S4 could ditch the 2:3 ratio. I thought (could be wrong) that i once read the rationale for maintaining 2:3 in the S was to keep the mirror and hence overall body smaller than would have been possible with a typical medium format 4x5 aspect? If so, with an EVF, I'd hope a more "traditional" aspect ratio for medium format could be introduced?

 

 

Edited March 15, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[irenedp]

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1 hour ago, BernardC said:

S lens compatibility was confirmed months ago, I think it's implied by "the entire range of Leica lenses." What's new is M and L-mount compatibility. We've speculated about this in the past, but it's good to get confirmation.

I assume existing Leica adapters for other MF brands would still work. Mechanical adapters (Hasselblad V, Pentax 67, Mamiya 645) will be fine, for obvious reasons, so the question is "will Leica continue to support Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses?" Both of these systems are discontinued, and I'm sure the adapters haven't been made for years.

Yes, I would expect that there would be an adaptor for legacy S lenses. I would also welcome a GFX lens adaptor. I would be interested in the new Fuji T/s lenses.

What is unclear to me is the value of using  ff lenses with smaller image circles -be those Leica , Nikon or whatever-. Of course I might be wrong in my concerns and there would be no vignetting.

[helged]

9 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

For me, the S4 would be very compelling if it's a universal EVF camera for all Leica lenses, ie, M and SL lenses, legacy S lenses, new S lenses. 

Personally, if the S4 camera body ended up not hugely bigger than an SL2/SL3, it's not quite so clear to me where would the SL cameras fit if the S4 ended up as a 1-hit system that provides both medium format + full frame?  Maybe it would still boil down more to cost, size differences, speed, etc?

Separately I'd imagine the Q and Ms would remain distinct still due to their ongoing compactness, light weight (even lighter since the M11 construction came out) when compared to anything S or SL related.

I certainly agree with heldged re interest in whether the S4 could ditch the 2:3 ratio. I thought (could be wrong) that i once read the rationale for maintaining 2:3 in the S was to keep the mirror and hence overall body smaller than would have been possible with a typical medium format 4x5 aspect? If so, with an EVF, I'd hope a more "traditional" aspect ratio for medium format could be introduced?

 

 

Yes, both mirror/mirror box and mechanical shutter are limitations/challenges for a larg(er), more quadratic sensor. With the mirrir/mirror box out of the equation, and with more and more usable electronic shutter, things are very different compared to 15+ years ago. 

I certainly keep the S-lenses; they shine on the existing S-bodies, but they may even better show their true sharpness on SLx bodies with the electronic shutter, practically eliminating the shutter-slack on S-bodies. 

[Jon Warwick]

8 minutes ago, irenedp said:

 

What is unclear to me is the value of using  ff lenses with smaller image circles -be those Leica , Nikon or whatever-. Of course I might be wrong in my concerns and there would be no vignetting.

Presumably as a crop mode for SL lenses on an S4, ie, the equivalent of TL lenses in crop mode on the SL?

Edited March 15, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[helged]

46 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

Presumably as a crop mode for SL lenses on an S4, ie, the equivalent of TL lenses in crop mode on the SL?

Yes, smaller-format lenses will use their native part of the S4 sensor. One could imagine that eg ff-lenses would cover the 'full' image circle of that format, i.e. 35x35 mm, but I guess the crop mode will be 36x24 mm. Time will show...

[irenedp]

3 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

Presumably as a crop mode for SL lenses on an S4, ie, the equivalent of TL lenses in crop mode on the SL?

yes, that makes sense 

[tom0511]

Frienkly for me the most important thing of the S4 will be that the existing S-lenses do work well with it, and not if I can adapt M or SL lenses and use them cropped. We have the M and SL bodies for M and SL lenses.

I hope the S-lenses work better on the S4 than they do on the SL2 with adapter.

I am not so happy to read the speculation about a new mount. I had hoped they will keep the S mount.

Anyways, overall I am very interested what we will see and when it will be announced/available.

 

[helged]

13 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Frienkly for me the most important thing of the S4 will be that the existing S-lenses do work well with it, and not if I can adapt M or SL lenses and use them cropped. We have the M and SL bodies for M and SL lenses.

I hope the S-lenses work better on the S4 than they do on the SL2 with adapter.

I am not so happy to read the speculation about a new mount. I had hoped they will keep the S mount.

Anyways, overall I am very interested what we will see and when it will be announced/available.

 

Regarding adapted lenses, I think this is a clever - and needed - move. It means that Leica doesn't have to provide a 'full' arsenal of mirrorless S lenses available at the release date, and that users can start with the S4 body plus one mirrorless S-lens and/or an adapter for existing S/L/M-mount lenses. For existing S-users, it is good to know that existing lenses can be used, despite belonging to a terminated system. 

Clearly, S4 needs to differentiate itsef from the ever growing L mount system, despite (presumably) being built on/from that system. And it will complete with, in particular, Fuji and Hassy. A more quadratic sensor shape, utilising a larger part of the image circle than the 3:2 ratio, seems like a needed move. 

[Doc_P]

Am 15.3.2024 um 16:02 schrieb helged:

Yes, smaller-format lenses will use their native part of the S4 sensor. One could imagine that eg ff-lenses would cover the 'full' image circle of that format, i.e. 35x35 mm, but I guess the crop mode will be 36x24 mm. Time will show...

35x35 would be great... Up to us to crop as needed... The idea of an S4 to use new "S4"-lenses, legacy S-lenses (some of them true gems!), clinical technically perfect L-Apo Crons is really fascinating, too...

Edited March 16, 2024 by Doc_P

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, Doc_P said:

35x35 would be great... Up to us to crop as needed... The idea of an S4 to use new "S4"-lenses, legacy S-lenses (some of them true gems!), clinical technically perfect L-Apo Crons is really fascinating, too...

? I can and do crop square on any camera I have today. What's the big deal?

[Jon Warwick]

Yes, but on a full frame camera, you aren’t using 35x35mm worth of sensor, because to make a square you’re cropping the full frame 3x2 ratio down to 24x24mm, and not maximising the area of sensor that the lenses could theoretically employ?

[tom0511]

I am not interested in a camera with a large sensor just to use in in crop mode with M and SL lenses.

I also expect that Leica takes care of people who have invested about 30-50k in S-lenses.

I understand mirrorless brings new lenses, but Nikon and Canon show that its possible to make DSLR-lenses work well on mirrorless bodies.

That is my expectation to Leica for the S4.

[tom0511]

Square is a special format, which you would crop to 3x4 or 2x3 most of the time, in this case a 35x35 sensor is not more than a FF sensor.

I would not mind a 3x4 sensor like x2d, or just the traditional 3x2.

 

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[Doc_P]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Pieter12:

? I can and do crop square on any camera I have today. What's the big deal?

Misunderstanding: on the S4 you might get 35x35, whereas FF sensors are 36x24mm...

[helged]

43 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

I am not interested in a camera with a large sensor just to use in in crop mode with M and SL lenses.

I also expect that Leica takes care of people who have invested about 30-50k in S-lenses.

I understand mirrorless brings new lenses, but Nikon and Canon show that its possible to make DSLR-lenses work well on mirrorless bodies.

That is my expectation to Leica for the S4.

Existing S-lenses will work on S4 via an electronic adapter, no problem. This is coming from Leica representative(s).