Strange M4 with engravings

[RustyCat]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hello guys, so I recently got a black chrome M4 body with serial number of 1384365. I looked up the S/N which shows it just a normal black chrome M4 produced in 1974, but the trange thing is the camera has the front face of the M4 50 Jahre, but on the back it got a mark of '1975' engraved comes with the  'O.Barnack 1879-1979' pattern (which is same as the M4-2 Gold O.Barnack). I am kind confused if this one is some kind of prototype or just self customized by privous owner.  Wondering if anyone have some ideas?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[a.noctilux]

6 hours ago, RustyCat said:

customized by privous owner

That look is just a customized engraving.

Nothing to talk about.

If for use, this is just another black M4.

If for collection, it's up to you.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[espelt]

The Leica M4 as a 50th anniversary model was manufactured in a black chrome finish both in Wetzlar and in Canada. According to current literature, only 1,750 cameras of this special model were manufactured. Each case had a 3-digit number plus one of the letters from the Leica name. The number could be found on the back. See illustration. The number then means: Camera 122 of the second series.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I don't know the Barnack engraving on these cameras in this context.
On the other hand, the engraving looks good and doesn't look like it was scratched afterwards. A factory camera? Employee's camera? Who knows...

[Al Brown]

The serial does not match the "50 years" which started with 14xxxxxx. There was definitely no Barnack engraving from 1979 and 1980, when the golden M4-2 was produced (which had this engraving) because the camera depicted here comes from 1974. Had this been the original top plate you would also not have 4 digits on the back but three digits plus one letter from the word L-E-I-C-A.
This all seems a custom job on a regular M4, but at least it is the black model - rarer.

[250swb]

The '1975' engraved on the back of the top plate is curious. If it's a customised job the engraving will have gone through the black chrome to the silver zinc underneath, so does the engraving look like it has an infill of black paint or is it black chrome? Maybe a close up of that area would be useful?

[Anbaric]

One thing I would do would be to contact the archive via info@leica-camera.com just in case they have any record of this being anything other than a regular production M4. Clearly it's not a proper anniversary model since it commemorates two different dates, with that direct contradiction between 1979 and the odd 1975 on the back (strange that they didn't use white as on the 50 year cameras if it's an infill, and even stranger if it was plated after engraving). But the two anniversary graphics do seem to match those on the authentic cameras rather closely. While third party engraving with this odd combination of dates and graphics seems most likely (maybe the owner just liked how they looked), it would be interesting if (say) a factory plate used to practice or proof special engravings somehow made its way into an assembled camera.

[Matlock]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The serial does not match the "50 years" which started with 14xxxxxx. There was definitely no Barnack engraving from 1979 and 1980, when the golden M4-2 was produced (which had this engraving) because the camera depicted here comes from 1974. Had this been the original top plate you would also not have 4 digits on the back but three digits plus one letter from the word L-E-I-C-A.
This all seems a custom job on a regular M4, but at least it is the black model - rarer.

Interestingly my 50 years M4 (1443xxx) bought from an authorised Leica dealer, does not have the letter and 3 digit engraving on the back plate.

[250swb]

4 hours ago, Anbaric said:

 and even stranger if it was plated after engraving).

If a factory job I think it would be almost essential to plate it after engraving just as the rest of the standard Leica engraving is done, bare zinc could start corroding quickly even under a decorative paint infill.

[Matlock]

13 minutes ago, 250swb said:

If a factory job I think it would be almost essential to plate it after engraving just as the rest of the standard Leica engraving is done, bare zinc could start corroding quickly even under a decorative paint infill.

But the top plate of an M4 is brass not zinc.

[Anbaric]

34 minutes ago, 250swb said:

If a factory job I think it would be almost essential to plate it after engraving just as the rest of the standard Leica engraving is done, bare zinc could start corroding quickly even under a decorative paint infill.

I meant it would be strange if the date engraving were a third party job - engraving and infilling is easy, but replating in black chrome (presumably over brass in this case, as Matlock notes) would be a lot more hassle for someone who isn't at the factory.

Edited March 14 by Anbaric

[250swb]

Yes, got that wrong it’s brass! Either way I can’t see a raw edge being left on a factory job.

[RustyCat]

Hello guys, thanks for replying. So I emailed Leica about this cemara and their reply is straightforward enough: the S/N indicates this is just a normal black chrome body and the 5O jahre one shold have the limited S/N on the back, plus the O.Barnack signature only appears on the Gold M4-2. I acutally have an another genuine M4 50 jahre, and the front logo looks just exactly same as this one, also the 1975 mark on the back is just so real so not quite sure about the real origin of this camera's engravings. 

[Al Brown]

2 hours ago, RustyCat said:

Hello guys, thanks for replying. So I emailed Leica about this cemara and their reply is straightforward enough: the S/N indicates this is just a normal black chrome body and the 5O jahre one shold have the limited S/N on the back, plus the O.Barnack signature only appears on the Gold M4-2. I acutally have an another genuine M4 50 jahre, and the front logo looks just exactly same as this one, also the 1975 mark on the back is just so real so not quite sure about the real origin of this camera's engravings. 

Thank you for letting us know. Somebody could also have bought a test/demo/trial 50 Jahre top plate at any point and put it on this regular M4.

[jc_braconi]

You can get any kind of personal engraving from Leica, if it refers to Leica or yourself, just ask and pay for.