SL3: many discussions about form and function, but what about IQ?

[Dr. G]

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The second is the RAW image with shadows pushed to +100 in Lightroom, again resized to 1600 on the long edge and converted to jpg.

 

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[LocalHero1953]

Thank you, @Dr. G, I'm always happy for others to do testing for me 🙂, but would you be willing to post 1:1 crops of the same images (i.e. no resizing, but cropped so we can see original pixels?) Say, of the top left corner of the box? And to stretch my begging even further, to try at ISO 25,000? You would earn my undying gratitude (which has no intrinsic value, I'm sorry to say).

Edited March 11, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[JohnSantaF4]

3 hours ago, Dr. G said:

This is ISO 10,000 on the SL3.  I copped my dishwasher out of the left side, but didn't touch the top or bottom of the image, so the amount of noise shouldn't be changed.  First is RAW straight out of camera, resized to 1600 on the long edge and converted to jpg.  

 

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That’s very impressive>I can’t imagine shooting at that ISO but, wow. Wondering how it might compare to a used SL2 that I’m considering (my budget has limits!)

[JohnSantaF4]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Thank you, @Dr. G, I'm always happy for others to do testing for me 🙂, but would you be willing to post 1:1 crops of the same images (i.e. no resizing, but cropped so we can see original pixels?) Say, of the top left corner of the box? And to stretch my begging even further, to try at ISO 25,000? You would earn my undying gratitude (which has no intrinsic value, I'm sorry to say).

Btw, Paul, great images on your website!

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb JohnSantaF4:

That’s very impressive>I can’t imagine shooting at that ISO but, wow. Wondering how it might compare to a used SL2 that I’m considering (my budget has limits!)

It will look good in this light but you don’t want to see what it would look like compared to post #21.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, JohnSantaF4 said:

Btw, Paul, great images on your website!

Thank you - that's very kind! As you can imagine, I get great pleasure in taking them.

[Photoworks]

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6 hours ago, Smogg said:

I advise you to pay attention to the noise pattern of the SL3. Most likely it is the same as on the M11. Then it is very organic and much better than the SL2, whose noise looks very unattractive, very digital

I did post images side by side at 4000ISO and 25000ISO and that is why I concluded that SL2 and SL3 are too similar than not.
If I had not told you about the camera use, you not  gotten the answer right.

Skeack for the good quality of the SL2

[Smogg]

9 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I did post images side by side at 4000ISO and 25000ISO and that is why I concluded that SL2 and SL3 are too similar than not.
If I had not told you about the camera use, you not  gotten the answer right.

Skeack for the good quality of the SL2

I don't have the SL3, but have owned the SL2 and Q2 for a short time in the past. I found the noise of these cameras to be unpleasant and too digital compared to the SL and M10. I'm not talking about the amount of noise. Then I bought an M11 and was more than satisfied with the noise. I also have X2D. Based on the fact that the sensors in the SL3, M11 and X2D are made using the same technology (in the latter case only the sizes differ), I conclude that the noise pattern will be the same. I like this noise better than the SL2

[albireo_double]

On 3/10/2024 at 4:25 PM, Jon Warwick said:

I found the rendering off the SL2 a bit brutally sharp and “digital” at times (as I do my GFX100s), and even needing to add Blur at times in post to dial it down but my initial response to the files off the SL3 is the rendering is gentler etc, and that for me is a welcome base to work off.

I am not sure that the SL3 will be meaningfully different in terms of "brutally sharp and digital at times". I only had about 15 minutes to shoot with the camera at launch and my judgment is based on a rudimentary review of the images on the back display. They looked as brutally sharp as the SL2 (or the S3, for that matter). This does not worry me - all these cameras need default sharpening brought back in Capture One and possibly some grain added at the end, for the images to look a bit more gentle.  There is no way around this with modern lenses - especially Peter Karbe's designs (the M35Apo in particular often makes my eyes bleed on the M11M). One can always reach for older lenses via adapters, or shoot the Summilux SL50 wide open to make the sharpness more manageable or selective. Or grab the original SL601 which rendered skin quite beautifully, without showing the structure of every pore on the tip of a model's nose.

[Dr. G]

14 minutes ago, albireo_double said:

I am not sure that the SL3 will be meaningfully different in terms of "brutally sharp and digital at times". I only had about 15 minutes to shoot with the camera at launch and my judgment is based on a rudimentary review of the images on the back display. They looked as brutally sharp as the SL2 (or the S3, for that matter). This does not worry me - all these cameras need default sharpening brought back in Capture One and possibly some grain added at the end, for the images to look a bit more gentle.  There is no way around this with modern lenses - especially Peter Karbe's designs (the M35Apo in particular often makes my eyes bleed on the M11M). One can always reach for older lenses via adapters, or shoot the Summilux SL50 wide open to make the sharpness more manageable or selective. Or grab the original SL601 which rendered skin quite beautifully, without showing the structure of every pore on the tip of a model's nose.

The APO SL lenses were designed to have both maximum sharpness and good subject separation, so it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that the combination of those lenses plus a high resolution sensor would yield... bitingly sharp images.  I remember in one of his videos, Matt Osborne had mentioned using a diffusion/mist filter with one of the APO SL lenses (I think it may have been the 90 APO) for portrait work as the lens was too sharp for his purposes.  For architectural and landscape photos, that sharpness would most likely be welcomed - and for high contrast black and white, the APO lenses are exceptional. 

At the end of the day I'd rather have "too much" sharpness that I can deal with either by choosing a different lens, adding a filter or just softening in post, than a result that I needed to try to artificially try to sharpen with software,  I'm lucky to have the 50 Lux SL and the 50 APO SL.  I have no problem walking around with the giant 50 Lux at times, but I'm a relatively big guy.  Even so, I was shooting it at an event in January alongside more than a few Sony shooters and almost every one of them commented about the size of the lens when they found it was "only a 50mm."

[Chaemono]

Those looking for the most organic look on the SL3 will have to get the APO Summarit-S 2.5/120, I’m afraid. Its organic rendering will be very synergistic with the 60 MP BSI sensor IMO.

[Dr. G]

13 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Those looking for the most organic look on the SL3 will have to get the APO Summarit-S 2.5/120, I’m afraid. Its organic rendering will be very synergistic with the 60 MP BSI sensor IMO.

Interesting.  For the price of the adapter and a good condition preowned 120 you're still pretty much under the price point of a new 90 APO SL.  

[albireo_double]

I have both the APO Summarit-S 2.5/120 and the adapter. Can't wait to see if the SL3 brings a meaningful AF speed upgrade also to S lenses via adapter (very slow on the SL2). 

[helged]

2 hours ago, albireo_double said:

I have both the APO Summarit-S 2.5/120 and the adapter. Can't wait to see if the SL3 brings a meaningful AF speed upgrade also to S lenses via adapter (very slow on the SL2). 

Don't expect much. Some improvement, but no deal breaker. And this is fine; the focus mechanism in the S-lenses are already being sufficiently stressed...

[albireo_double]

Well, I just tried but I see no improvement - the APO Summarit 120-S 2.5/120 hunts on the SL3 the same way it did on the SL2. In fact, the S3 feels like a speed demon with this lens, in comparison. On a side note, it is sort of revelatory now to see how nice the view through the OVF on the S3 is in comparison with the EVF on the SL cameras. We've always known this... but the S3 is not for sale, no matter the same resolution and technical advances in the SL3.

I also tried to use my Super Symmar-S 3.5/24 on the SL3 and it immediately killed the lens' AF gears. The lens had been repaired for the same problem already in the past but obviously with the original version of the AF gears, not yet the reinforced newer version. Oh well, another trip to Wetzlar then. 

My conclusion is that S lenses on the SL3 is perhaps not the best way forward. 

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb albireo_double:

Well, I just tried but I see no improvement - the APO Summarit 120-S 2.5/120 hunts on the SL3 the same way it did on the SL2. In fact, the S3 feels like a speed demon with this lens, in comparison. On a side note, it is sort of revelatory now to see how nice the view through the OVF on the S3 is in comparison with the EVF on the SL cameras. We've always known this... but the S3 is not for sale, no matter the same resolution and technical advances in the SL3.

I also tried to use my Super Symmar-S 3.5/24 on the SL3 and it immediately killed the lens' AF gears. The lens had been repaired for the same problem already in the past but obviously with the original version of the AF gears, not yet the reinforced newer version. Oh well, another trip to Wetzlar then. 

My conclusion is that S lenses on the SL3 is perhaps not the best way forward. 

Thanks for your feedback. The S3 OVF is like a breadth of fresh air. The EVF in a mirrorless S4 will need to be much better than the EVF in the SL cameras to compensate for that experience. I will skip the SL3 and wait for the S4 next year.

[la1402]

Sean Reid has  just published his studio test. Very positive, also compared to the SL2.