Summar R mark question

[sandro]

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I have another question for Summar owners. It seems that the Summar 5 cm was the first Leitz lens with the R mark for infrared photography, in 1933. The oldest Summar serial number with R mark I found so far is 167211, from the first batch of 1000 lenses in 1933. However, the first serial number of any Leitz lens with R mark that I found so far is 162265, for an Elmar 10,5 cm.

So my question is if anyone would have a Summar or other Leitz lens with the R mark with a serial number preceding the two numbers I mentioned. 

Thanks, Lex

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[UliWer]

Unfortunately my lenses with numbers close to those you mentioned show no R-mark: Elmar 1:6.3/10.5 cm 162404 and Elmar 14/9cm 165119.

Edited February 21, 2024 by UliWer

[sandro]

Uli, are you sure about the numbers you mention? The numbers I mentioned are with six digits, yours with seven.

Lex

[UliWer]

Sorry for the mistake - I corrected it: the 10.5cm Elmar is 162404.

[sandro]

Thanks Uli. It is fascinating to see that within one batch there are lenses with and without the R engraving.

Lex

[UliWer]

Is your 162265 in nickel or chrome? Mine is chrome - and might have been produced earlier even though it has a higher number.

[sandro]

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I do not own that one, 162265. For some time I am trying to research several lenses and note their serial numbers, but I haven't recorded if it was nickel or chrome.

Lex

[Pyrogallol]

I have two 105mm Mountain Elmars. 162513 does not have the infrared "R" but 162851 does.

[willeica]

Have a look at this, Lex, and see Post 22 by myself, with details of a group of Summars in my collection.

The earliest 5cm Summar I could find with an R mark was 195070. 194902 does not have an R mark. I suspect your 167211 might have had the R mark added later. As regards Mountain Elmars, I own 136617 and that does not have an R mark. As I have said many times before, do not expect Leica lens issues to have followed a strict chronological pattern according to serial number. That could mean that Summar 194902 was issued before Mountain Elmar No 162265, or that Mountain Elmars got the R mark before Summars. Try the Leica Archive to see if they have delivery dates for both of those lenses. 

William 

[sandro]

Thanks William, I had already used the material of your Summars in my notes about R marks. That there is no strict moment when R marks were engraved and that some lenses got this engraving and other lenses of the same batch did not, is not really surprising with what we know about Leitz. But it is interesting. I still have to find positive proof that R engravings were sometimes added later.

Thanks, Lex

[Pyrogallol]

Mountain Elmars would be more likely to be used with Infrared film than Summars as the benefits of Infrared light cutting through distant haze in landscapes would have helped with “mountain” photography. Whereas the Summar was a fast lens used for “available light” photography by journalists and keen amateurs. Having said that I now find that the example shown below is from a Summar  !

Edited February 21, 2024 by Pyrogallol

[Pyrogallol]

The earliest reference to Infrared photography I can find in Leica News & Technique is in the November 1935 edition. See...

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[Pyrogallol]

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[sandro]

Thank you for this interesting contribution. One of the things that I find interesting is the use of Ilford infrared film. This publication is from November 1935, which means that the Ilford infrared film was available some time bebore in 35mm or Leica film. For amateur use I would think that the Summar was very useful for infared, since it is a general purpose lens. So in earlier editions of this journal no information on infrared film, filters and possibly the R mark can be found? I would be interested since I do not have access to this journal.

Lex

Edited February 22, 2024 by sandro

[willeica]

16 hours ago, sandro said:

Thanks William, I had already used the material of your Summars in my notes about R marks. That there is no strict moment when R marks were engraved and that some lenses got this engraving and other lenses of the same batch did not, is not really surprising with what we know about Leitz. But it is interesting. I still have to find positive proof that R engravings were sometimes added later.

Thanks, Lex

The Summar had a mount which could be changed easily to give an R mark. I have at least one example of a Summar mount with a lens head from a different period. As for when IR photography became 'popular', I'm not sure that it was ever truly popular. Leitz had other things they provided for which went nowhere, such as the special aperture settings (e.g. f2.9 for Summar) for using the Agfa Leitz colour film filters with certain lenses such as the Summar and the 7.3cm Hector. Not everything that Leitz started out on turned out to be a success. I suggest that, if you have not already done so, you should look at the progress of IR film outside the Leitz/Leica fold.

William 

[sandro]

Thanks William, indeed I am looking much broader to infrared photography than only regarding Leitz. I am looking into the availability of infrared film in 35mm (Leica film, Kino film) and into literature, so the Leitz activity is part of that, but cetrainly an interesting part.

Lex