is Leica SL system for professionals?

[Photoworks]

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Are you using the Leica SL camera system for professional work as a main camera?
4 years ago I migrated to the SL2 camera because I like the usability, image quality, and lenses.

As a professional, I do have a few requirements:

Image Quality

Reliable equipment

Service

Connectivity on capture

Ecosystem

 

 

 

1. Image Quality. I enjoy the images coming out of the Leica SL2, the DNG is easy to edit and offers a great amount of colors and details.

I adapt many lenses to this system, from Leica M, EOS from Canon, and Cinema Glass. The MicroLens system over the sensor makes a big difference in the quality and resolution of adapted glass over other systems like Sony. It is very evident by adapting the same Tilt-shift lenses to SL2 vs Sony. On the SL2 the corner detail is superior over the Sony.

 

 

2. Reliable equipment is a must, but for the occasion of a malfunction as a professional, we cover it with backup equipment.

For the most part, I have been happy with this equipment. But in these last 12 months, I had to send in a few items for repair.

 

 

3. Service: My SL2 camera holds up well for daily usage, the rubber of the eye cup is a weak point and needs replacing, but no complaints. The service center in the USA was great.

But I had to send in a 24-90 lens that they replaced after 4 months. A flash SF_60 just stopped and they were not able to offer repair. An M11 that needed a new shutter. And last one is the Summicron-SL 50 APO that failed the firmware update and stopped working, the estimated repair time 5-7 months.

This is my main concern. I have other systems that provide professional support, Sony and Canon, where in most cases the turnaround time is 1 week or less.
1 week to 7 months is a big difference. It is not easy to be out of your equipment for a long time. That means that you have to get a backup for the backup.

I understand that SL lenses are not repaired outside of Germany, but there needs to be a plan for an alternative, a paid PRO service for quick repair, and or a loaner program.

The 24-90 lens was replaced because they didn’t have the parts available.
The SF-60 is made by Nissin and Nissin service is in Japan and I don’t know why they were not able to fix it. The SL 50 APO has a firmware issue, apparently, each SL lens has a custom firmware. Why did it fail? I don’t know if all the other 6 SL lenses are updated fine.

All this has been on my mind since I preordered a Leica SL3, and concerned if it is the right move to keep spending money on this SL system.

 

 

 

4. Connectivity: In my work, I am connected to a computer or iPad 50% of my shoots

After 2 years of finding workarounds to connect to Capture One, they finally supported Tether and Leica left their buggy software in the dust.

SL2 is very stable and fast to work with it.

In recent weeks the M11 got an update forcing you to tether by activating the tether menu mode, now the camera will ignore writes to the card and if you disconnect you can no longer keep shooting into the card because you are in tether mode, I hope this does not come to SL3

 

5. Ecosystem: I think Leica makes great products, that give pleasure to use. I think a few things are missing from this system.

I would like to see a hall range of Summilux lenses for SL, that have the quality of an SL lens.

I like to see a new robust flash system. The Nissin implementation is old and not great.

We need a system that chargers quicker with a dedicated rechargeable battery, a flash that does not overheat, and construction where the head of the SF-60 does not flap around and turn when in use.

I think the user group of Leica’s is too small for other companies to bring out a modern flash, It took 2 years for Profoto to come out for a trigger. I suppose it is to late to change the hotshoe to something else that exists, like Panasonic or Nikon.

On the video side, it would be nice to get an option for XLR inputs.

 

What do you think? Do you have needs that are not listed here?

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[LocalHero1953]

What you write about the failure of your Summicron-SL 50 is interesting. My Apo-Summicron-SL 75 failed (bricked) during a firmware update nearly two years ago, and took about 6 months to fix - it wasn't under warranty, but the cost was not high - but the slow repair and lack of communication was infuriating.

I am an amateur (so couldn't qualify for a pro service), but I have a lot of photographic commitments to others. My first recourse strategy in case of a failure of my SL2-S body or lenses would be to buy a lower cost Panasonic S5ii body or one of the various Sigma or Panasonic lenses, which are readily available. In video the SL2-S is already a back up to my main Blackmagic Cine Camera 6k, which is also L-mount.

After the SF64 I vowed never to touch another 'Leica' flash - a disaster of an interface. I now prefer manual flash: previously old Nikon SB28s, bought in multiples on eBay, and now a couple of Godox AD200 and V850.

Connectivity is not a requirement for me. Good image quality is, especially colour - it's what most people seeng my images comment on (leaving aside subject & composition).

[Olaf_ZG]

About ten years ago I was a wedding tog. Nikon equipment. Never had to service anything, and if sth broke, it was due to my mistake (dropping, drowning etc) and I simply bought new, as equipment was written off by then and not that expensive, especially in comparison with Leica.

If I would now use Leica, the first backup would be Leica, but after that, panasonic/sigma would fill the gap for bodies. Can’t imagine buying a second same fl lens as backup from Leica though.

Regarding flash, now I use Godox, but would choose either elinchrom or profoto if i had to go pro again.

 

[BernardC]

I agree that the main issue for professional use is the lack of pro-level support, especially now that Godox and Profoto offer compatible flashes. Hopefully Leica can set-up some kind of paid professional support in key markets. It won't happen in my market (Canada), but the USA and mainland Europe should be doable.

One of the photographers that I used to "second" for would only update firmware during her off-season (she was a wedding pro). Why mess with a working system? You certainly wouldn't install a new Mac OS when you are on a deadline.

[Steven Lane]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My Apo-Summicron-SL 75 failed (bricked) during a firmware update nearly two years ago, and took about 6 months to fix

Interesting, the same thing happened to my 75 and it took a similar time to fix it. Based on this and my experience with other camera and lens repairs, I would assume the worst case with your 50 and not expect to see it again for 7 months.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

especially now that Godox and Profoto offer compatible flashes.

wait, they don't. Currently no Godox or Profoto flash is compatible with Leica, only the triggers are. Which is better than nothing, but not ideal. 

[Olaf_ZG]

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22 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

wait, they don't. Currently no Godox or Profoto flash is compatible with Leica, only the triggers are. Which is better than nothing, but not ideal. 

Isn’t this enough? A serious question, as I don’t see any problem (but then use my offlights only manual…)

[Richardgb]

On 2/20/2024 at 6:40 PM, BernardC said:

I agree that the main issue for professional use is the lack of pro-level support, especially now that Godox and Profoto offer compatible flashes. Hopefully Leica can set-up some kind of paid professional support in key markets. It won't happen in my market (Canada), but the USA and mainland Europe should be doable.

One of the photographers that I used to "second" for would only update firmware during her off-season (she was a wedding pro). Why mess with a working system? You certainly wouldn't install a new Mac OS when you are on a deadline.

I doubt it. Leica Solms then Wetzlar used to have fast service - as I understand it, you paid a fee to queue jump - but haven't had since before 2019, when I last enquired whether it was possble to get a 'quick' repair.

While I'm sure Leica likes to see its cameras used professionally, I don't think the company is interested in the pro market. Sure, they trade on their used-by-professionals reputation and history, but when you look closely this is largely from the film-M days: 'When you buy Leica, you're buying a piece of photographic history' and all that. So be it, if it helps sell cameras and lenses.

When you look at how Canon, Nikon, and Sony indulge accredited photographers at major sports events and / or news organisations who've bought into their systems, Leica wouldn't have the resources to compete. Remember, too, how Nikon supported photographers in the 1960s as they took their early SLRs into Viet Nam...

[Simone_DF]

47 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Isn’t this enough? A serious question, as I don’t see any problem (but then use my offlights only manual…)

Same. I use my off camera flashes in manual. The only time I wish I had TTL is when I have the flash on-camera and I need something quick. Which you cannot get with neither ProFoto nor Godox on a Leica. 

[Photoworks]

55 minutes ago, Richardgb said:

While I'm sure Leica likes to see its cameras used professionally, I don't think the company is interested in the pro market. Sure, they trade on their used-by-professionals reputation and history, but when you look closely this is largely from the film-M days: 'When you buy Leica, you're buying a piece of photographic history' and all that. So be it, if it helps sell cameras and lenses.

Considering the M11-P new feature, I think leica wants to be a pro option

i don’t think any non pro cares about authenticity or the file

[Slender]

I am shooting (super) high profile events with my SL2 system, wit lots of pressure on image quality and a quick turnover.

It is not uncomon for me to have it "on" from 9AM till 1AM next day, up to 5 days in a row, and shoot 1000's of images per day.

At first, I had a mixed experience with appreciating image quality at higher ISO because my expectations were unrealisticaly high at first (coming from an M9 before that...lol) but with better practice, firmware and software since the camera came out, I get superb results up to 12500 ISO outputting jpegs at 24Mpixels and I do not FOMO on the SL2S like I used to... Now I am in love/peace with the SL2. Only thing I dont like is how thirsty on battery it is... I can easily go through 4 or 5 a day.

 

However my other body is an M10r (sharing lenses with SL2). I wouldnt mind grabbing an SL2s used after SL3 comes out and prices crash further down. I can't imagine the SL3 one being better at video or low light than my SL2 because of the huge resolution and rolling shutter... and an SL2s would give me those ready to go 24mp files when working in low light (which is 50/70% of what I do in reality).

AF is great in stills using the 24/90. Unreliable and buggy in video.

So yeah, happy pro with SL2, count me in.

Will wait for SL3s.

I did enjoy Loaner cameras from Leica comes time to send the camera to gernany (for repair or health check up before warranty runs out).

Had that 2 times with M9 (on second hand camera) - Once with SL2/24-90 combo - Once currently with my m10r I pushed too far shooting in -30 cold....

Edited February 21, 2024 by Slender

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, Slender said:

I am shooting (super) high profile events with my SL2 system, wit lots of pressure on image quality and a quick turnover.

I did the same in a sector where I usually work in a different capacity, albeit not super high profile, for a year or so on my SL2-S and the 24-90. The images' quality and outstanding colour were/are essential to my USP. At the beginning of that journey, I tested a Canon RP and a Nikon Z6 for a couple of months, and neither camera satisfied my vision of RAW files from a stills camera. The same could be said about their standard zoom. Leica's 24-90 plays in a different league.

On these gigs, the Leica camera-zoom combo churned out 97% tack-sharp photos with unsurpassed colour and noise, requiring minimal editing time. I think you cannot have it more "pro" for that kind of work. For sports, wildlife, etc., that is different. And for regular news gathering, Leica is too expensive. For these professionals, costs matter more than their picture's colour and the exclusivity of their gear (the latter can matter to specific clients).

At some point, due to time constraints, I left that line of work to pros who enjoyed it more than I did and settled with my photography solely on editorial work. I don't need/want AF in that field and prefer a small footprint. So, I sold the mighty 24-90. I even use B&W film with Ms for that kind of work; clients love it. But the SL2-S remains a reliable workhorse with a great chance to last for another three years or more. 

Maybe the SL3-S will be a tempting camera, as quickly-made videos play a role sometimes. But for that, the SL2-S does everything I need, and frankly, if I shot a proper video job, I'd rent an Alexa package.

Bottomline: The SL series is as pro as any other manufacturer's top-tier camera. It depends on what you try to achieve with it. 

[hansvons]

13 hours ago, Richardgb said:

While I'm sure Leica likes to see its cameras used professionally, I don't think the company is interested in the pro market.

One of Leica's premier selling points is its exhibitions. Leica's galleries are well-attended and doubtless play a role in fine art photography, which is a professional sector at a certain level. These exhibitions are carefully curated, targeting a well-off, liberal audience with a high affinity for the arts. This high profile gives Leica cameras credibility for a blend of high-level journalism and fine art. For many customers, this is precisely what they are looking for.

Without pros doing incredible work with Leica cameras, Leica would become purely a luxury brand up to the point of being exposed to ridicule, which some of the bling M versions are already. It's a fine walk, which Leica's marketing excels at.

[pgk]

13 hours ago, Richardgb said:

While I'm sure Leica likes to see its cameras used professionally, I don't think the company is interested in the pro market. Sure, they trade on their used-by-professionals reputation and history, but when you look closely this is largely from the film-M days: 'When you buy Leica, you're buying a piece of photographic history' and all that.

A very good summation. As a pro would I invest in a Leica system as my sole pro equipment? No. I use Sony cameras and lenses too, and so far without fault. I have several repair options if there were problems with any Sony gear, but to be honest if I needed a replacement fast I would bite the bullet and buy another body or lens and sell off the repaired one later - cheapest solution/option. As for 'incredible work', well there are extraordinary photos taken on all sorts of cameras, so no its not really a selling point for me.

I like my Leicas but don't have any illusions about them being more effective than other cameras. I simply like using them.

[LEGEND]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:32 PM, Simone_DF said:

wait, they don't. Currently no Godox or Profoto flash is compatible with Leica, only the triggers are. Which is better than nothing, but not ideal. 

Why don't use this newGodox xPro II for Leica  as a trigger and perhaps Godox V1 or something similar as flash?

xPro II - L mounted on hot shoe   and Godox V1 mounted on some camera cage next to it.
xPro II - L has TTL / HSS finally has support for Leica and this can trigger the TTL / HSS flash.

I'm not sure if this can work actually but it is interesting idea.
I plan to buy me this new Godox xPro II - L for my Leica SL2-S.
Will see if it works...

Nikola 

[Simone_DF]

47 minutes ago, LEGEND said:

Why don't use this newGodox xPro II for Leica  as a trigger and perhaps Godox V1 or something similar as flash?

xPro II - L mounted on hot shoe   and Godox V1 mounted on some camera cage next to it.
 

The camera is already heavy the way it is. I don't want to use some workaround like a cage, I'd rather shoot in manual (which is what I'm doing).

The thing is, Leica should really drop their ridiculous protocol and adopt either the Panasonic protocol - to have full compatibility within L mount - or at least the Nikon protocol. Hasselblad does it, so why not Leica?   

[LEGEND]

14 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

The camera is already heavy the way it is. I don't want to use some workaround like a cage, I'd rather shoot in manual (which is what I'm doing).

The thing is, Leica should really drop their ridiculous protocol and adopt either the Panasonic protocol - to have full compatibility within L mount - or at least the Nikon protocol. Hasselblad does it, so why not Leica?   

I agree completely... 
it was just an idea. 
Here is a photo how this “workaround“ would look like.
It remind me on “Transformers“  Optimus Prime ... 

Nikola

 

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[jaapv]

I understand the wish but Leica needs to have a consistent protocol throughout the camera lines. The M cannot have TTL without the present configuration. 
Can the flash not be mounted on a rail beside the camera like the Metz45 was? 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Biotar]

But Nissin run with the Leica-protocol. At the same time, I use the MG10s with the SF C1 on SL or M and simultaneously in an open group with Air10s on my Backup-Lumix S1 or Sony A7r/s.

The Nissin system is not too bad for pros.

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, Richardgb said:

When you look at how Canon, Nikon, and Sony indulge accredited photographers at major sports events and / or news organisations who've bought into their systems, Leica wouldn't have the resources to compete.

That isn't going to happen, ever. The press and sports market is tiny, and it's already well-served by the three brands that you mention. Or at least two of the three; I'm not convinced that Sony has the fortitude to stick it out for the long haul.

The thing is, when you mention "pro photogs" to the average punter, that's their mental image: some kind of Nat Geo/major conflict jet-setter, or someone covering the Olympics. That mental image sells Canons to punters at Best Buy, so you can tell why those brands exploit it in their marketing.

Only a small percentage of working professionals fall under that umbrella, as far as I know. It might be even less if you use a tighter definition of "working photographer" that an acquaintance once told me (he was an exec of a Canadian photo trade association at the time): "someone who makes enough from photography to pay a mortgage and send their kids to university."

Long story short: Leica won't be pulling-up to the US Open with a tractor trailer full of 800mm lenses any time soon. It's not their market, and it doesn't align with their brand image. This doesn't mean that they can't offer better support to working professionals by providing loaners and expedited repairs.