My first impressions of the Panasonic S5 ii

[LocalHero1953]

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On 3/20/2024 at 3:36 PM, jaapv said:

Sensor colour rendering: Neutral, slightly subdued compared to Leica but easily pulled up in post. 

How do you do this? Increase saturation? Steeper contrast curve? Custom profile? Or is this a result of a wider dynamic range, sorted by adjusting white and black points?

 

Thanks for your other comments/conclusions. It's great that we have so many brand choices for bodies in L-mount between Leica, Panasonic, Sigma and BM, all of which bring different design emphases and stylistic preferences, that you don't get within one family of, say, Canon. I have the BM 6k which is better than the SL2-S for video capture (though similar in IQ), and which I prefer to the S5ii at a similar price point - the BM has a large rear touchscreen which is great for video control and monitoring during recording (and better UI/menus than Leica or Panasonic). It is useless as a practical stills camera though. The Sigma is just tiny and minimalistic (and has more rationally organised menus than Leica).

Assuming it has the expected and obvious improvements, and lessons learned from reception of the SL3, I'm waiting for the SL3-S to replace my SL2-S. As the closest competitor to the S5ii, it will be interesting to see what Leica brings that makes the price difference really worthwhile. 

Edited March 28, 2024 by LocalHero1953

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[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

How do you do this? Increase saturation? Steeper contrast curve? Custom profile? Or is this a result of a wider dynamic range, sorted by adjusting white and black points?

 

Thanks for your other comments/conclusions. It's great that we have so many brand choices for bodies in L-mount between Leica, Panasonic, Sigma and BM, all of which bring different design emphases and stylistic preferences, that you don't get within one family of, say, Canon. I have the BM 6k which is better than the SL2-S for video capture (though similar in IQ), and which I prefer to the S5ii at a similar price point - the BM has a large rear touchscreen which is great for video control and monitoring during recording (and better UI/menus than Leica or Panasonic). It is useless as a practical stills camera though. The Sigma is just tiny and minimalistic (and has more rationally organised menus than Leica).

Assuming it has the expected and obvious improvements, and lessons learned from reception of the SL3, I'm waiting for the SL3-S to replace my SL2-S. As the closest competitor to the S5ii, it will be interesting to see what Leica brings that makes the price difference really worthwhile. 

Agree. I suspect that there will be quite a few of similarities under the Leica sauce used by Wetzlar for the SL3S. 

As for editing workflow, I really cannot give a recipe as, unlike a professional, I edit my photos individually.
After using my own profile (which does not differ much from “embedded” I must say)  I tweaked a variety of shots to my liking and kind of averaged the settings into an  ACR “auto” default which gives me a good starting point. 
 

I guess’s that the fact that Leica and Panasonic developed this sensor together accounts for the ease of equalizing the output. Possibly Panasonic tweaked the DNG parameters digitally only and not on a Bayer level. 

[DirkZ]

I am satisfied with the S5II except for its AF-performance in photo-mode. The S5II is not reliable for fast moving objects. I have installed the latest firmware that brought a lot of improvements and new functions to the S5II. But still it cannot handle fast moving objects. I have asked my niece to run to me while I took a series of images with face-detection and AF-C enabled. Shutterspeed 1/2000 sec. Most of the images are blured. While I was shooting the AF-marker was correctly placed to her eyes. I tried various settings and lenses but the performance is not as it should be.

AF-performance is not the most important thing for my style of photography. But if it is of importance I wouldn't recommend L-Mount. Currently there is no L-mount-camera that is on par with its competetitors (Canon, Nikon, Sony) regarding AF-performance.

Apart of the dissapointing AF-performance I like the S5II for its features, built quality, versatility, ergonomics, image quality. Everything fine but concerningn AF, Panasonic has to do some homework.

Edited June 8, 2024 by DirkZ

[jaapv]

Is your niece faster than my dog 😉?  A series of it running towards me only missed one shot. What were your AF settings?  Did you use series or did you take individual shots?  Actually it is one of the strong points of the camera. You should not attempt to point the camera on the eye yourself in a fast moving situation, that is bound to fail. Use field or full sensor and eye detection human. 

This is what the camera can do: As you can tell by the narrow DOF, it is a worst case scenario: a very long lens (150-600 and thus extremely narrow DOF) and using the zoom ring during a burst. 

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[DirkZ]

@jaapvI used full field autofocus, series shot (LV High), Human detection (Eye,Face,Body), AF-C and was playing around with some individual settings for AF (Sensitivity +2 / Area Switching Sensitivity +2 / Moving Subject Prediction 0).

If you have better "luck" than me, I am a bit confused what to do. I tried a lot of shots of my two nieces and got more out of focus than in focus results. I cannot show these images here as it is private. But when I check the images on the camera's display the green square is often not spotted on the eye but somewhere else.

If this is not common for the S5II, maybe I have to send it to Panasonic for a check.

P.S.: And sometimes it has problems detecting the eye of people wearing glasses.

Edited June 9, 2024 by DirkZ
Addition

[jaapv]

It is true that objects coming towards you are handled better than moving subject parallel to the camera. But your results should not be that bad. Amateur Photographer had a fast moving train 130 shots at 30 fps all in focus. Have you tried tracking focus for your use case? 

[DirkZ]

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Have you tried tracking focus for your use case?

Yes, this was even worse. I prefer AF-C.

[Boojay]

15 hours ago, DirkZ said:

I am satisfied with the S5II except for its AF-performance in photo-mode. The S5II is not reliable for fast moving objects. I have installed the latest firmware that brought a lot of improvements and new functions to the S5II. But still it cannot handle fast moving objects. I have asked my niece to run to me while I took a series of images with face-detection and AF-C enabled. Shutterspeed 1/2000 sec. Most of the images are blured. While I was shooting the AF-marker was correctly placed to her eyes. I tried various settings and lenses but the performance is not as it should be.

AF-performance is not the most important thing for my style of photography. But if it is of importance I wouldn't recommend L-Mount. Currently there is no L-mount-camera that is on par with its competetitors (Canon, Nikon, Sony) regarding AF-performance.

Apart of the dissapointing AF-performance I like the S5II for its features, built quality, versatility, ergonomics, image quality. Everything fine but concerningn AF, Panasonic has to do some homework.

While I would agree that the AF of the S52 is not at the same level as Sony/Canon/Nikon, (though my experience is only with Canon), I still find it more than good enough for sports,  kids and dogs, though my daughters whippets are mostly too much of a challenge and luck is needed there - actually whatever the camera with those two nutcases.  I have had next to no luck with BIF but then I'm not even good at those with my Canon kit, unless we are talking larger birds that don't represent too much of a challenge.  It does take more time to get your settings exactly right and practise and what works for one might not work for another.  

For track events I would use AFC  - 1 Area or 1 Area + Eye/Face/Body Detection, Shutter Type EFC, and Medium Burst setting.. I always seem to get slightly better results with the  lower frame rate, and less time sorting through the images later.   I will pretty much use the same settings when capturing the dogs action (with Animal enabled).   The AF custom settings I mostly leave on default Case 1.    I would just suggest trying similar settings on your Niece before giving up.. I am not a fan of full field though I know some are.  

A few examples from a XC event using above settings... this is 3/4 shots from a sequence, the camera picked the two front runners up in the dip at the bottom of the hill, I have around 10-12 shots all perfectly focussed in their run up the hill towards me.  I should also add, I only result to shutter speeds of 1/2000 and up when I'm after BIF... for runners 1/640 1/800 always works adequately for me.  

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Not suggesting these could not be better but as a user of both a Canon system and an L mount system, I find it  possible to get useable results from both, and for ergo's and menu's prefer L mount.

 

[DirkZ]

Thank you guys for your suggestions. I'll keep on training and experimenting a bit. Normally I am not a shooter of action. But the last days we've spent a good time together on a holiday farm for families with children. So, I had time to take some shots of my nieces and made my first experiences with shots of children playing and running.

When it comes to AF-performance I have an eye on the competitors, firstly Sony. But I still prefer L-Mount and Lumix-cameras, especially for its ergonomics, operation concept and menu.

[jaapv]

For AF Sony is certainly market leader. But I did notice that the lens makes a significant difference as well. I have an impression that the camera works best with Sigma ( and presumably LUMIX )lenses. The Sigma 70-200 is really superior in this respect. Leica lenses lag somewhat, it seems. 

[DirkZ]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Leica lenses lag somewhat, it seems.

I have no experience with Leica lenses. In case I would choose a Leica lens it would be for landscape, architecture, streets or portrait but not for action and sports.

Most of my lenses are from Panasonic.

[DirkZ]

I couldn't resist ordering a Sony A7RV with 24-150mm F4.0 lens. The AF is really great. And I like the tilting screen-mechanism. But that's all. Emotionally I still prefer my S5II. I like the ergonomics, the menu-system, the operation with buttons and dials. There isn't much to complain about the S5II except the AF performance.

The A7RV does recognise humans eyes under all circumstances. If there is something in front of the face, it doesn't detract the system and still focuses on the eye. The S5II does focus on the nearest subject - even the person in the background is easily to recognize. The S5II gets already detracted by people wearing glasses and if hair is in front of the eye. I have images where the hair is sharp and the eye blured. This doesn't happen with the Sony.

The S5II - no challenging situations..the person is good to see but the AF fails to focus on the eye

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The A7RV - challenging situations but the AF is accurat and focuses on the eye

I hope Panasonic will catch up to the competition concerning AF performance and accuracy. Here is still a lot to do for Panasonic.

Now I am thinking if I will make the switch to Sony or not. I will not have two camera brands.

[DirkZ]

Here is another example how bad the AF performs.

This is, what the monitor is showing me - the left eye should be in focus

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This is after the shot what the Playback-Screen is showing me - Yes the focus was on the eye - but the focus is somewhere around the bowl.

This is the final image from the SD-card.....the eye is not in focus....

....and this is, how it should look like....

All images taken with the Lumix 28-200mm lens

I simply cannot rely on what the camera tells me is in focus. Next week I have to take images on a wedding ceremony. For sure I will not take my S5II for that. I need a camera that performs well and reliable.

Edited June 19, 2024 by DirkZ
Addition of what lens has been used.

[Markey]

Sony is the market leader but saying that belies the fact that Pany/ Leica is lagging considerably when it comes to AF.

Some of this can be mitigated its true but even so I never fully trust it to deliver.

I have been using M bodies for over 30 years but I shot early Sony bodies for equestrian work.

Preferred (still do) Leica for all the usual reasons not least the colour science  so eventually switched to an SL2s for equestrian stuff however I wasn`t prepared for the disparity in AF performance.

 I still prefer the SL2s overall but I fail to understand why Panasonic are lagging behind in something so basic and vital as AF performance

[DirkZ]

I have contacted Panasonic. They say it could be a hardware issue. I will send the camera to Panasonic for repair. But honestly I doubt, it is a hardware issue. It seems more to be a software issue. However I will Panasonic let check it in their service center.

[Boojay]

1 minute ago, DirkZ said:

I have contacted Panasonic. They say it could be a hardware issue. I will send the camera to Panasonic for repair. But honestly I doubt, it is a hardware issue. It seems more to be a software issue. However I will Panasonic let check it in their service center.

I'm not sure what the issue is, while I agree that Panasonic is behind Canon/Sony in the AF Department there shouldn't be any problem getting focus on the kind of samples you have above.

My only comment on your samples is that the bottom shot you describe as "how it should be" the necklace is much more in focus and sharp than the image of the eye.

 

[DirkZ]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Boojay:

My only comment on your samples is that the bottom shot you describe as "how it should be" the necklace is much more in focus and sharp than the image of the eye.

 

This is because the face is printed with low resolution. But it is good enough for this test. You can also see the letters above the face. These are more sharp in the "right" image than in the images, where the shot is out of focus.

[DirkZ]

When I bought my first L-Mount-camera (SL2-S) in 2022 I didn't expect best-in-class-AF-performance. But I expect that the AF is robust and reliable. Especially the S5II should perform well as it has phase-detection-AF and meanwhile some firmwareupdates. Yes, it should perform WELL. I do not expect the performance of Sony's latest topp models. But it could be as good as the A7IV. Panasonic had sufficient time to evolve a good working AF. What I have described above is a complete fail of the AF-system.

I will send the camera to Panasonic for a check and will report back. For the time being, I'll get a Sony....and maybe stick with it when the issue of my S5II will not be solved.

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[gbpost]

I don'have a S5II at hand but I have an S1r. The box around the face and the crosshair in the eye are green after the S1r has focused. On your first picture the colors are yellow and white respectively. I wonder what the meaning of these colors is compared to green.

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by gbpost
typo

[DirkZ]

@gbpost The box gets green as soon I press the release button half down. The image was taken without pressing the release button.