m6 classic (solms) or m7 with mp VF?

[roby]

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hello everyone, I'm thinking of getting a leica m with exposure meter, I'm evaluating between a classic leica m6 and a leica m7, although I consider the m7 a much more comfortable camera, faster and with a more accurate exposure meter I am however very frightened by the reliability of its electronics, talking with the employees of a leica store in my city they told me that by now they are no longer available spare parts me for the board of the m6 nor of the m7, in your opinion my fear is legitimate or the m7 remains a very reliable machine and I should not worry? in fact maybe the electronics problem might be an overestimated problem since there are much older cameras that used electronics more intensively and are able to defend themselves very effectively against time (trivially a polaroid sx-70 is a camera that uses electronics much more intensively by having electromechanical motors for instant film ejection and I don't see problems with its electronics being much considered).

I should point out that I am a student who likes to shoot analog as a hobby, so for me such a purchase is a very serious matter, since I had to save for a long time to be able to afford such a purchase

[ktmrider2]

Buying a camera like the M7 is probably a crap shoot.  I know the electronics fail (you can read stories here on the forum) but at what frequency?  If the M7 fails, you only have 1/60 and 1/125.  The meter in the classic M6 has also been known to go bad but then you basically have an M4-P which still gives you all the shutter speeds so not that big a deal.  There was talk when the M6 was reintroduced last year that classic M6's could be repaired using the meters of the new M6.  I don't know how that idea worked out.

If you really want a meter and cannot afford a new M6 or MP, I think a classic M6 would be a fairly safe bet.  Again, I know the meters fail but I think the failure is very very rare.  You should also look at the M5, perhaps the best meter Leica ever put into a camera.  The M5 did not fail because of the meter or lack of features but because Leica buyers are very conservative and the M5 did not have the classic outlines of the M3.  It may be the most advanced camera Leica ever made before the M7.  And the CL was introduced at the same time for one third the cost of the M5 and the Japanese were making Nikon F's and Canon F-1's.  The M5 is a hell of a camera and may be 30% less than a M6 with a better meter, say $2000 for a body in good working order.  

And if you can get by without a meter, the M2, M3, M4, M4-2 and M4-P are all excellent and will save you about $1000-1500 over an M6 in the same condition.  You can pick up a used hand held meter or a hot shoe mounted meter for under $100 and  learn to shoot with the sunny 16 rule.  To me the most accurate metering is with a hand held incident light meter which is what I use.  If you shoot primarily 50, do yourself a favor and check out an M3.  If 35 is more to your taste, the M2 is the best viewfinder Leica ever made for that focal length, IMHO.  There are people on this site that have used every Leica film camera made and they still swear by the M3 or M2.  Also, check out rangefinderforum.com for info on rangefinders other than Leica.

Buy from a reputable dealer like Tamarkin in Chicago or Classic Connection which have very good return policies on used gear.  I would go for an M2 with a handheld meter which might have a combined cost of $2000-2500, much cheaper than a M6 or M7 as the 35 is my favorite focal length.  If you think about it, the MA is basically a modern M2/3/4 while the MP is a modern M6.  I don't know the sales figures of either camera but I bet the MA sells as well as the MP.  Film, especially negative film, has incredible latitude which makes shooting without a meter a lot easier than on a digital camera.

Between the two models you mention, I would go with the M6 Classic as it works just fine if the metering system goes tango uniform.

Edited February 9, 2024 by ktmrider2

[Anbaric]

I hadn't heard that the M7 boards are out of stock (you could query this with info@leica-camera.com ), but it wouldn't be surprising if this happens at some point in the next few years if it hasn't already. The M6-TTL and M6 Classic boards are certainly no longer available. The consequences of board failure would then be different. An M6 Classic would be as functional as, say, the M4-P (everything except metering would work), whereas with the TTL I think you would also lose all flash sync (even for manual flash). But the M7 would basically become non-functional, with most of the shutter speeds unavailable. You might find someone who could do something if some discrete component on the board had failed, but otherwise you'd have an expensive brick.

It's possible there will be replacements for the old M6 meter boards in the future - Leica have suggested this (even implying something could be done to turn the TTL into a functional Classic), but keep pushing the timetable back. Presumably they have been looking at retrofitting the board from the new M6, or some derivative of it. Independent technician Alan Starkie is also looking at making an M6 meter board. For the M7, it would be a more difficult task because the AE electronics are more complex and unique to this camera. When replacements run out, it may be the end of the road.

None of these cameras are regarded as unreliable, though meter board failures do happen from time to time, and there are some specific problems with the M7 like the DX code reader (they changed the design for later production) and an issue Alan Starkie comments on here. M7 electronic repairs by Leica can also be slow and expensive, and the same would almost certainly be true if they start to offer a replacement service for the old M6 boards. Back in the days when spare M6 Classic boards were available to third party repairers, they could be swapped out much more cheaply, but this may never happen again.

[espelt]

Much more comfortable, more accurate and, above all, faster - that's actually relative. There are areas of application where an M7 has an advantage in terms of speed: with slide film. Which has to be exposed precisely. And here you are usually faster with an internal measuring device. But is that even an issue?
If you mainly want to photograph black and white and like a Porta for some color every now and then - all the electronics are actually unnecessary. With a little practice, you will soon be able to work just as quickly and safely with an M2 or M4 without a light meter. You will inevitably learn a lot more about photography.
If your budget is tight, look at the M4 as well as the M2.
The M4 is, so to speak, the last purely mechanical camera and combines the experiences from the M3 and M2. The biggest difference is the quick film loading system, the small film rewind crank and the more modern film advance lever. The M4-P and M4-2 also offer a few more pairs of frames. The classic M4 came from Wetzlar. The later versions from Canada.
You can enjoy a good copy for a very long time. And you can find them at significantly cheaper prices like M6 or M7. There is still budget for a good lens

[rossawilson1]

The other day the screw that keeps on the plastic tip to the advance lever for my M6 came off and was lost. I tried five UK repairers and Leica themselves, none have them, Leica do but they said they are not allowed to sell parts due to a huge pressure on CLA's. So there you go. Straight from the horse's mouth.

The CLA's with Leica are taking a long time too. So yeah this is a real issue and you're right to be worried. Fortunately I was able to get one off eBay. 

There does seem to be the beginnings of third-party Leica spares being made but we are right at the beginning of this and I don't know how long it will take or how many things will eventually become available. 

As an aside my M6 had been fine for the 15 years Ive had it from buying used, then the meter started getting iffy last year so I sent it in for a long over due CLA. I was warned that if the meter is gone then they might not be able to replace it. Apparently someone is working on making replacements. There are a few other issues too that may not be able to be fixed. Fortunately my meter was loose wiring. They fixed that and some other stuff too.

My advice would be to make sure the M6 you buy was CLA'd in the last year or so for a bit of peace of mind, ask for the receipt. Alternatively be prepared that an external hot shoe meter may be required. Fortunately there are a lot of new choices of these now. But that doesn't solve the issue of replacing other defective parts.

Finally there's always the new M6 reissue. Yeah, it's basically twice the price, although adjusted for inflation it's the same price as an M6 was when it first came out. I bought one recently because not only is a second body useful but I was genuinely getting worried about not having an M6 when I really needed it. Im sure the timing of the release of the camera has to do with this parts issue. Some think it's low for Lecia to do this, but then that's capitalism for you.  

Good luck, maybe get an M4 or M4-P and a hotshoe meter, it's very similar to the M6. 

Edited February 9, 2024 by rossawilson1

[LocalHero1953]

If you are a student and this purchase is an investment (in your photographic future, not financial) then in your shoes I would avoid both M6 and M7 and go for a M2/M3/M4 and a good handheld exposure meter (I have a Sekonic L398 for my M4). I agree with others that there is nothing particularly unreliable about the M6 or M7 except the consequences of old age. As learning tools, a meterless body and a handheld meter should last you a long time. 

Welcome to the forum! It's a great resource of knowledge and experience (and talent), which have benefitted from over many years.

Edited February 9, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Anbaric]

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Devil's advocate opinion: with the way Leica prices are today, if I were on a student budget I'd probably buy a Nikon FM or something, for perhaps 5% of the cost of an M6. I doubt the meter is any more serviceable than the one in the M6, but if necessary you can replace the whole camera for the price of a Leica UV filter...

[spydrxx]

I think Anbaric hit the nail on the head. While Leica may sound enticing to a bright eyed and bushy tailed newbie, it is like giving a Ferrari or Masterati to a student driver, who is much better served and cost effective to have something less expensive to buy, use, and maintain, all the while developing the skills to handle a more complex vehicle. In the SLR category I like the Canons and Nikons. But if it must be a rangefinder, then let me suggest an earlier LTM mount body, which although having a squinty rangefinder window, because of the built in magnification focusing is generally more accurate than the later M mount bodies. A side benefit is that you can use your LTM lenses later on any M body with an inexpensive adapter. Whatever you eventually choose, enjoy the road to learning.

[LocalHero1953]

A Leica M2/M3/M4 isn't exactly a Ferrari or Maserati in complexity. They (and the M6 at least) are very basic cameras, well made and with an exceptional ecosystem of lenses++. The argument for getting a Nikon FM, a good one, is surely based on cost, not complexity (a rangefinder is complex optics, but then so is a reflex viewfinder). Exactly the same skills are needed for both, and you will get the same learning experience on both.

[Fotoklaus]

You can also buy a Canon Eos 300 for 5 €/$/£ and have a fully automated camera and buy 3 Sigma Art- Lenses for the money. But that is no argument when one wants an M. 

[VanDooglz]

When it comes to taking a photo, the M7 is by far the most capable Leica. It will give you images other Leicas may fail at. The AE mode and accurate multi-second exposures are valuable features. That is all you need to know to make a decision.

Everything else is just silly folklore and superstitions. Unless you're seriously into rituals, of course! In that case, go ahead and add a fully mechanical Leica to your fully mechanical TV, fully mechanical refrigerator, and fully mechanical pedal-powered car. I suppose all those devices will last you several lifetimes and will be enjoyed by your grandchildren, just make sure to cover their logos with a duct tape.

P.S. You may consider securing a solid block of brass to go with a fully mechanical Leica. You can mount it on a little brass leg going into the flash shoe. This would be consistent with the religion.

Edited February 10, 2024 by VanDooglz

[Knipsknecht]

Personally I prefer the shooting experience of the M7 over the M6 - and I own both types of camera. And of course, every camera is prone to failure, be it mechanical or electronic. Albeit mechanical failure in general is easier to repair. Given this, I would always recommend to buy camera gear that fits pricewise into one‘s individual budget. When I was a student I wouldn‘t have spend a single thought about buying a Leica. But of course, this doesn’t mean you have to follow my way of thinking.

But anyway, I would recommend to investigate into a Nikon FM, FE or FE2. I own a FE2 and this camera has more or less the same build quality as a Leica M6 or M7. Additionally you can shoot it in aperture priority mood - like a M7. Personally I prefer the rangefinder, but Nikons split screen finder is okay and you can get the camera in good condition for a lot less money. And it looks almost as cool as a Leica😉.

[Anbaric]

11 hours ago, VanDooglz said:

When it comes to taking a photo, the M7 is by far the most capable Leica. It will give you images other Leicas may fail at. The AE mode and accurate multi-second exposures are valuable features. That is all you need to know to make a decision.

Everything else is just silly folklore and superstitions. Unless you're seriously into rituals, of course! In that case, go ahead and add a fully mechanical Leica to your fully mechanical TV, fully mechanical refrigerator, and fully mechanical pedal-powered car. I suppose all those devices will last you several lifetimes and will be enjoyed by your grandchildren, just make sure to cover their logos with a duct tape.

P.S. You may consider securing a solid block of brass to go with a fully mechanical Leica. You can mount it on a little brass leg going into the flash shoe. This would be consistent with the religion.

Lots of things about Leicas are fetishised, of course, like the endless discussions about exactly which type of black finish is best. But there are pragmatic issues here. If you're doing the sort of photography where lack of automation means missing shots, people with other cameras (like AF SLRs) may well be taking pictures when a Leica user is still aligning the RF images or winding the film on or turning that neat little rewind crank by hand. Aperture priority AE on a manual camera, which most of Leica's competitors had implemented by the 1970s, is a useful convenience that some people prefer, but hardly a deal breaker for the kind of photography a Leica is commonly used for.

The other issue is that Leicas are really expensive cameras, which has traditionally been counterbalanced by their longevity. If you're of student age, you might reasonably expect a mechanical Leica to work and be fixable for the rest of your photographic career; A 99 year old Leica I is still serviceable. The M7 was discontinued about 6 years ago and there is at best a diminishing supply of spare circuit boards (if they haven't already run out as the OP's dealer suggests). In any case, it's reasonable to assume they won't be available a decade from now (the M6 TTL boards ran out after 15 years), and it's understandable that a purchaser in 2024 would consider this. It's the expense that makes the difference. Nobody agonises about whether a Nikon FE is less reliable or serviceable than an FM, because they can just go out and buy another one if it fails. It's a bit different when you're spending £3000 on a camera that some top independent technicians will no longer work on, and which has a couple of known recurrent issues with the electronics.

Edited February 10, 2024 by Anbaric

[science]

The constant talk of M7 boards failing is really hyperbole. I’ve had mine since the day they came out, now over two decades ago. Been all over the world not a hiccup. If you talk to Don Goldberg who I regard as the expert here, he says he’s not seen a defective meter in an M7 and the ones he had heard about were caught very early…and the electronics are very solid. He also said when the M6 came out he repaired many bad meters then nothing. So he hypothesized that they upgraded the electronics and their fix worked-and that most bad M6 were repaired long ago from his experience.

Sure there’s a chance the meters go bad. Same with M6. It’s the risk we all take. If you’re really worried buy the new M6 or just roll the dice and you have pretty good odds the camera will be fine. 

[Anbaric]

4 minutes ago, science said:

Sure there’s a chance the meters go bad. Same with M6. It’s the risk we all take. If you’re really worried buy the new M6 or just roll the dice and you have pretty good odds the camera will be fine. 

It's not just the meter. Unlike the M6 (which has completely different and much simpler electronics), the M7 won't work at all if the board dies, except on a couple of manual speeds. Nobody is saying the M7 is generally unreliable (though a couple of recurrent issues have surfaced), just that the consequences will be different if this happens and the spares are no longer available. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I already had an M7 (I have other cameras with electronically controlled shutters that are no longer serviceable), I would just keep on using it. Hopefully yours will continue to work well for many years to come! But I would think twice about laying down the current asking price for what will presumably be the film M with the shortest serviceable shutter life. Buying one now is different to buying one 20 years ago.

[science]

Of course I know the shutter is electronic. The issues with the shutter and electronic contacts on the M7 can be repaired by DGA as of last month no issues. The last few years have brought many worry warts to the Leica film world that I never experienced in real use—shooting M Cameras for three decades. Everything can break. Nothing is permanent. If these things worry you buy an MA with an external meter and replace that if it goes.
Or spend a few grand more and get a brand new MP or M6 (similar and have updated finders. The M7 or M6 are expensive yes. And they do have electronics. But with that said I have electronics from the early 80s working as if they’re brand new. 
I’d be more worried if this were a thread about the Contax G series which I’ve had break and many others have also. M electronics knock on wood have been very good. 

[Anbaric]

Everything can break, and nothing is permanent, but with any mechanical Leica, pretty much everything can be fixed (except the meter, which isn't essential, and might be fixable again soon). That includes my 88 year old IIIa, which would probably benefit from a new beamsplitter, and my 75 year old IIIc, which needs a shutter overhaul. But when the spare circuit boards for the M7 dry up, which could happen at any time (and I would lay odds will happen within a decade), then a major electronic failure may become permanent and you'll have an expensive brick. Is this likely? Hopefully not. I also have cameras with electronically controlled shutters from the 80s and 90s that are fine. But I have a couple that have failed, one about 10 years from new, and nothing can be done for them at any reasonable price - they are now just sources of spare parts. I have also returned a couple of secondhand NIkon FE bodies that had flaky electronics (all three FM/FM2s I have bought, which have mechanical shutters, have been fine, though that's hardly a significant sample!).

We shouldn't generally waste time worrying about this stuff (who knows if the cameras we have will outlast us?), but at the same time it's something to consider if you are going to spend a lot of money on a secondhand Leica today (which is after all the subject of this thread).

[hansvons]

Tons of great advice here. I’d look at it from a budget and usability perspective.

If it should be a range finder, the Ms are the way to go. The cheapest M with all modern features sans light meter is the M4P. The M6 classic from the 80ies is more expensive but not by a large margine, think of adding another 500 euro for the light meter.

The M7, however, comes at a very different price point. It costs about a nice 35mm Summarit more than a decade older M6 classic.

I do worry about electronics that fail as it happened to me two times with Leica R4s; they bricked fatally. But it’s not the camera that bothers me, it's the shots that I will lose.

The camera can be rebought the shot not. Hence mechanical shutters (which back then I solved with a nice R6). In the event that the light meter stops working, which happened with my M6 a couple of times because the battery died, a light meter app saved the day. A battery-dead M7  won’t give you a 1/250-1/1000 which I find essential shutter speeds. One might argue, just take a spare battery with you. But this isn't working for me.

Considering all this I ended up with a freshly CLAed M6 classic as my main camera. 

On 2/9/2024 at 8:55 AM, roby said:

I should point out that I am a student who likes to shoot analog as a hobby, so for me such a purchase is a very serious matter,

I’m not a collector and not even taking photos purely for a hobby. Lenses and cameras are in my life an investment that must make sense financially and artistically. The M6 classic is for me the sweet spot. 

[jukka]

 

19 hours ago, hansvons said:

One might argue, just take a spare battery with you. But this isn't working for me.

Can I ask you why? I don't have any issues carrying around two small extra batteries. I've done that for years with the M7, not once have I lost a shot due to failed batteries (that need to be changed once a year or so). In fact, carrying around extra film tends to be more of a hassle when you don't want to bring, say, a bag. I've lost many shots due to film running out. 

 

19 hours ago, hansvons said:

I’m not a collector and not even taking photos purely for a hobby. Lenses and cameras are in my life an investment that must make sense financially and artistically. The M6 classic is for me the sweet spot. 

Well, I am a hobbyist, but even so I tend to think that the M7 has helped me not to lose shots. This is relative to manual exposure cameras, such as the FM2n, for instance, that I also used for a number of years.

The consideration whether your camera lasts to your grandchildren really is secondary when you want to make quick, accurate exposures here and now.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hansvons]

4 hours ago, jukka said:

Can I ask you why? I don't have any issues carrying around two small extra batteries. I've done that for years with the M7, not once have I lost a shot due to failed batteries (that need to be changed once a year or so). In fact, carrying around extra film tends to be more of a hassle when you don't want to bring, say, a bag. I've lost many shots due to film running out. 

Good question. It's probably due to my clumsiness and inability to care about little things correctly, like batteries and SD cards (especially the small ones). I keep losing them. Film canisters are large enough, and I always carry a spare roll. Or ten, if there's a chance to run out of stock. I admit I've also lost shots because I ran out of rolls. Hate that.

4 hours ago, jukka said:

Well, I am a hobbyist, but even so I tend to think that the M7 has helped me not to lose shots.

There's no difference to me whether you hate losing a shot because you are taking photos for your pleasure or because of other people's expectations. In my experience, the first can be worse.

For me, however, my gear must motivate me and pay for the money it costs. The latter is somewhat blurry, of course. But I like clean shelves and straightforward equipment. As this is a Leica forum, many argue from a collector's and enthusiast's point of view, which is totally OK but can cloud the view on costs vs results, for I'd never buy a Noctilux or a Steel Rim, 8-elements, any silver lens, an APO M lens, a black painted or silver chrome body, a double stroke M3 or any M with the legacy uptake spool or rewind knob. 

4 hours ago, jukka said:

The consideration whether your camera lasts to your grandchildren really is secondary when you want to make quick, accurate exposures here and now.

Absolutely. I'm confident the M7 is a brilliant camera, the pinnacle of Leica's M system. I was contemplating getting one because the A-priority can come in pretty handy. My text above is primarily based on budget considerations. I'm sure we agree that an M7 is considerably more expensive than an 80s M6. And yes, its shutter is probably more accurate, especially at 1/1000. However, my M6's shutter times are pretty good, as I learned from the CLA report.

---

CLA costs are often underrated when considering buying a used film camera. I'd only buy freshly CLAed lenses and cameras from a reputed dealer. There are exceptions, of course, when buying privately makes sense because you clearly know what you get.

Edited February 12, 2024 by hansvons