Printing neutral greys / Lightroom Classic

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

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One of my new year resolutions is to print more, and to really understand how to get exactly what I see on screen onto paper, in Lightroom Classic (LrC). With that in mind, I've started a small experiment.

I started with a 4-patch colour RGB image in Photoshop, saved as PSD. The patches are at 25% / 50%, 75%, and 100% brightness with equal values for red, green, and blue. In other words: precise neutral grey. This image I imported into LrC.

Viewing this image in the develop module, its appearance on my screen is neutral grey. The histogram shows 3 narrow, equally spaced white peaks (the 4th for 100% brightness is. apparently, not visible). Hovering over each patch with the mouse cursor I see equal percentages for red, green, and blue.

Enabling soft-proofing and checking 'simulate paper and ink' for pretty much any paper profile, the image no longer looks neutral. The colour values for each patch are no longer neutral grey, and the histogram shows separate peaks for red, green, and blue. The print of this image also no longer looks neutral grey. It does however match what I see on screen with soft-proofing and paper simulation enabled.

At this point I am feeling somewhat confused: I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that the whole point of profiles for screen, printer + paper was to ensure consistency, and soft-proofing primarily to help me see the impact of paper colour, contrast (dmax?), and gamut. My experiment however says that not even in-gamut colours are maintained. I found this surprising.

I then created a mask with separate curves for each colour to restore the patches to neutral grey. This is of course specific to the combination of printer + paper, but easily applied to a virtual copy / proof copy in the develop module when preparing an image for printing. If I do that, the resulting print is once again (very close to) neutral grey.

Am I understanding this correctly? Is this expected (or do I have errors in my set-up)? Am I over-complicating things?

[rogxwhit]

The aim of soft proofing is just to simulate a result.  You then, with soft proofing still activated, adjust the image to give the result you want, and if sending to print save that adjusted version / variant as the 'to print' file.  Normally, one would keep the original file unaltered as the archival resource. 

[250swb]

If all you want is a neutral Grey use Greyscale instead of RGB. Convert either before or after post processing but Greyscale does limit post processing options.

I'm not sure why you'd want a completely neutral output, silver based darkroom paper is only rarely neutral, they are either warmer or cooler, and the same goes for high end inkjet papers, they each impart a tone, warm or cool. Warm or Cool tones in the  paper or the processed image affect the photograph in an emotional way so neutralising any mild tint is kind of throwing away a key part of your ammunition in making a great image.

Edited January 25, 2024 by 250swb

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

It’s an experiment: I want to practice how to get precise control over the colours of my print.  in other words: if there is a tint in my print, it should be there by my choice.

From your comments - thank you - I take it that what I’ve described is as expected.  That’s good to hear, thank you for the confirmation.

Seems I have two directions I could take this: either attempt to control paper-ink induced tints via adjustment curves, or build up a library of paper-ink icc profiles to then select which paper(s) would work best for each print.  In addition to considerations of paper texture, weight, etc.  More food for thought.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

If you are using an Epson you are far more likely to get a neutral black and white print by using the Advanced Black and White mode in the driver. I believe Canon has something similar. The reason these exist is that it is particularly challenging to profile a very neutral greyscale with an 8-11 ink printer. The driver essentially tells the printer to use only the grey and black inks, and to use small amounts of colored inks to achieve the proper tone (you can adjust the warmth or coolness). Most fine art printers I know (I do it as a job myself...I have a Hahnemühle Certified Studio) use these tools. If you use a profile for a black and white print, the printer itself does not know that it is black and white, it just has the color values and densities, and it just uses all 8-11 inks in its arsenal to try to achieve that particular dot. The problem with that is that over the millions of dots, some will use slightly different mixtures of colors, and that is what can lead to color casts. If you set up the driver ahead of time to just use the grey and black inks, the print will be both more neutral and higher quality overall.

In terms of softproofing, when you click simulate paper and ink one of the reasons it is no longer neutral is that it is measuring the paper white, so all the colors in the image are going to shift in response to that color. For papers with a lot of optical brightening agents, that will be a blue/magenta shift, and for papers without that will be a yellow shift. Very few papers are a true "neutral" white. In general I rarely use softproofing these days. In my experience a high quality calibrated monitor and good profiles goes further than softproofing in most cases. The biggest reason is that monitors and prints are different kind of media -- reflective vs transmissive. You can get them to look similar, but it is very hard to get them to really look the same. Lighting and the color temp of your calibration are also critical to getting it correct. I find that I calibrate my Eizo to 5500k but my Solux lights in the studio are 4700k...that gives me a better match than using the 5000K Solux lights and setting the monitor to 5000K. Unfortunately it is all still a bit more art than science, at least if you want to get things truly spot on.

In terms of color prints, good profiles are helpful. If you find yourself struggling to get good results, consider converting the images to Adobe RGB and then print with Lightroom color management off, and choose Epson Color Adobe RGB in the driver. Then you are still using "profiled" results, but instead of using an ICC profile to translate, you are just making the file itself AdobeRGB and telling the printer that the file coming in is AdobeRGB. This does not compensate for the paper base, but in my experience you often get a better dmax and contrast range, as well as quite accurate colors. This is a trick from Ctein, an expert printer who wrote about it on a blog a few years ago. I have found it to often be preferable to profiles, except in certain circumstances, for example certain deep colors, particularly blues, can get a bit of a color shift. But overall it works quite well.

 

Edited January 25, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[Jeff S]

I prefer to use ImagePrint (Black version) rather than using my LR/Photoshop print utilities and the Epson driver (even compared to ABW) for my print needs.  Full time soft proof mode, with superb profiles for virtually all papers (with variants for different lighting conditions), and including grayscale mode if desired.  All printer settings are automatically optimized, a nice array of editing controls, and no surprise operating issues with the Apple/Adobe/Epson upgrade chain. Expensive, but worth every dollar for me, even though I use a small fraction of its capabilities. Custom profiling gear alone would significantly exceed the cost.

Jeff

Edited January 26, 2024 by Jeff S

[Stuart Richardson]

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As long as it does a specific black and white mode with some control, you should be good. I tried Mirage and they have a greyscale mode now but there is no control over its tone. I found it inferior to just Lightroom and ABW mode. But RIPs can be helpful at times, especially if you want an all in one solution. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As long as it does a specific black and white mode with some control, you should be good. I tried Mirage and they have a greyscale mode now but there is no control over its tone. I found it inferior to just Lightroom and ABW mode. But RIPs can be helpful at times, especially if you want an all in one solution. 

Years ago, George DeWolfe, a well respected B&W printer, ran his own print tests  using IP versus Piezography, ABW, etc, and found that IP produced superior results for his needs and preferences.  I incorporated it into my workflow and found similar improvements.  There have of course been upgrades to many of these processes over the years, but I continue to be pleased with IP’s flexibility, control and output.  It’s not a lazy person’s all-in-one solution; rather a sophisticated approach developed by some smart and practical folks.

Jeff

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Jeff S:

Years ago, George DeWolfe, a well respected B&W printer, ran his own print tests  using IP versus Piezography, ABW, etc, and found that IP produced superior results for his needs and preferences.  I incorporated it into my workflow and found similar improvements.  There have of course been upgrades to many of these processes over the years, but I continue to be pleased with IP’s flexibility, control and output.  It’s not a lazy person’s all-in-one solution; rather a sophisticated approach developed by some smart and practical folks.

Jeff

Hmmm.  Here's the bit I still don't understand: I use a profiled screen, to make sure that when I look at something that's grey (or red, or any other colour), it actually looks grey on screen.  OK.  What's different with printer-ink-paper profiles?  Why do I not get a grey print when the image is grey?

Michael

Edited January 26, 2024 by IchBinKeinRoboter

[Stuart Richardson]

30 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Years ago, George DeWolfe, a well respected B&W printer, ran his own print tests  using IP versus Piezography, ABW, etc, and found that IP produced superior results for his needs and preferences.  I incorporated it into my workflow and found similar improvements.  There have of course been upgrades to many of these processes over the years, but I continue to be pleased with IP’s flexibility, control and output.  It’s not a lazy person’s all-in-one solution; rather a sophisticated approach developed by some smart and practical folks.

Jeff

I was not saying it was for lazy people. I meant that it is good if you do not want to bother with trying to get all the software to talk to each other, which can lead to frustration at times, especially if you update your software as soon as a new version comes out. RIPs also used to be nearly essential for good results. It is not really the case anymore. I am sure ImagePrint gives great results. It is not, however, essential. I feel confident in saying that, as I have been doing it professionally for fifteen years and have yet to meet another fine art printer who uses it. I am sure they are out there. We all find our own methods of working and achieving the results we need.

[Jeff S]

Color management applies to every step, not just to camera, screen and to print, but to display lighting as well.  There are many good resources on these topics.  Fraser’s book is a comprehensive one..

https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-2nd/dp/0321267222
 

Jeff

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

Following on from the above: phrasing my question in terms of black-and-white / grey may have led us down a b/w specific path.  So I've created another set of files with color patches in pure red, pure green, and pure blue.  Four patches each, at 25% / 50% / 75% and 100%.  In Photoshop they are exactly as described, pure red / pure green / pure blue.

I've then imported these files into Lightroom Classic, and ... a file with pure red patches suddenly has traces of green and blue!  Same for the other primary colours.  And that's even without 'soft proofing'  -- why?

I've attached Lightroom Classic screenshots of each of the four files, in the Develop module, with soft-proofing turned off, and the histograms for each of them as shown in the Develop module.

 

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[IchBinKeinRoboter]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Jeff S:

Color management applies to every step, not just to camera, screen and to print, but to display lighting as well.  There are many good resources on these topics.  Fraser’s book is a comprehensive one..

https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-2nd/dp/0321267222
 

Jeff

Going to check out that book - thanks for the suggestion!

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

We all find our own methods of working and achieving the results we need.

This.

Jeff

[elmars]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb IchBinKeinRoboter:

Following on from the above: phrasing my question in terms of black-and-white / grey may have led us down a b/w specific path.  So I've created another set of files with color patches in pure red, pure green, and pure blue.  Four patches each, at 25% / 50% / 75% and 100%.  In Photoshop they are exactly as described, pure red / pure green / pure blue.

I've then imported these files into Lightroom Classic, and ... a file with pure red patches suddenly has traces of green and blue!  Same for the other primary colours.  And that's even without 'soft proofing'  -- why?

I've attached Lightroom Classic screenshots of each of the four files, in the Develop module, with soft-proofing turned off, and the histograms for each of them as shown in the Develop module.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I am not an expert and can therefore only offer one thought: In which colour space did you create the photos in PS? In LR, everything is displayed in the ProFoto colour space and perhaps other colours have been added through a conversion.

[jaapv]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:59 PM, IchBinKeinRoboter said:

Hmmm.  Here's the bit I still don't understand: I use a profiled screen, to make sure that when I look at something that's grey (or red, or any other colour), it actually looks grey on screen.  OK.  What's different with printer-ink-paper profiles?  Why do I not get a grey print when the image is grey?

Michael

This is a complicated subject. Under what light are you viewing your print?  How is the screen calibrated? Does your printer have a grey cassette?  Are you seeing metamerism?  It is advisable to read “ Real World Color Management “ by Fraser et al. despite this being an older publication. Available in Kindle. 

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

Am 27.1.2024 um 16:23 schrieb elmars:

I am not an expert and can therefore only offer one thought: In which colour space did you create the photos in PS? In LR, everything is displayed in the ProFoto colour space and perhaps other colours have been added through a conversion.

AdobeRGB.  Since ProPhoto RGB is bigger, this should not have caused any shift

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

This is a complicated subject. Under what light are you viewing your print?  How is the screen calibrated? Does your printer have a grey cassette?  Are you seeing metamerism?  It is advisable to read “ Real World Color Management “ by Fraser et al. despite this being an older publication. Available in Kindle. 

Not dealing with a print at this stage: purely a comparison of the histogram of the same file once before and once after import into Lightroom Classic

[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, IchBinKeinRoboter said:

Not dealing with a print at this stage: purely a comparison of the histogram of the same file once before and once after import into Lightroom Classic

I think you might be approaching it a bit too much like a robot, though you claim not to be one, haha. Seriously, though, color management is an area where there are so many variables that it is very hard to diagnose an issue without understanding every piece of equipment and software you are using at every step of the process. Jaap's suggestion is a good one. But I would also encourage you to view your results holistically. I would suggest you step away from the histograms and softproofing, adjust the file as it looks best to you with a calibrated screen, print the file with ABW mode or Canon equivalent, and see where you wind up. Adjust the grayscale to your liking. Once the settings are saved they will not change, so you only have to do it once for each paper, and you can use the same settings for papers of similar base color. For color prints you should be able to get very close assuming you have a calibrated monitor and a decent paper profile from your paper company. Getting it close is not usually all that big of a challenge. Getting it to be a perfect perfect match can be difficult or impossible, depending on your screen, lighting situation and printer/paper combo.

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[hansvons]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:37 PM, IchBinKeinRoboter said:

Enabling soft-proofing and checking 'simulate paper and ink' for pretty much any paper profile, the image no longer looks neutral. The colour values for each patch are no longer neutral grey, and the histogram shows separate peaks for red, green, and blue. The print of this image also no longer looks neutral grey. It does however match what I see on screen with soft-proofing and paper simulation enabled.

Great thread, by the way, and good questions. @Stuart Richardson gave comprehensive answers and insights on many levels. Thanks for that!!

On 1/25/2024 at 10:17 PM, rogxwhit said:

The aim of soft proofing is just to simulate a result.  You then, with soft proofing still activated, adjust the image to give the result you want, and if sending to print save that adjusted version / variant as the 'to print' file.  

Exactly. That's the whole point of soft-proofing. You select the paper ICC LUT in question, and things look off as it mimics the printed result. Then, you adjust for that in your editor and print the corrected image. The print should now look roughly like the original image without the paper LUT enabled. No software miraculously adjusts for that delta, at least not to my knowledge. One reason is that blacks tend to hover on the printed result (e.g. Photo Rag) with a unique gamma toe, killing detail in the print. For that, you have to adjust manually. And that can be pretty tricky.

Bottom line: If you have a specific paper in mind, you should grade your image for that specific paper. BTW, in filmmaking, we encounter similar issues. Cinema requires a different colour grading approach than regular TV, as does HDR Rec2020 content because highlights are massively wider and brighter on proper HDR tellies than Rec709 or sRGB displays.

---

Colour spaces don't have much to do with soft-proofing, as the computer's colour management corrects them in an ideal world, equalising to the computer's screen (often that's sRGB or P3), and the images should look identical regardless of what colour space you have selected for you working colour space. However, if your screen can display Adobe RGB's full gamut (larger than the usual sRGB), your soft-proofing and editing in general will benefit because Adobe RGB roughly represents what the best printers can print, at least better than the regular sRGB. 

Lastly, the viewing environment should match the monitor. In printing, that's 5000 Kelvin (in filmmaking, it's 6500K). The best is to adjust your monitor to Adobe RGB or P3 colour-managed and select a colour temperature of 5.000K. Modern Apple computers have a preset for that. Then you buy proper 5.000K light tubes that illuminate your working place, and you are set. Initially, that may feel a bit too warm, but your eyes will adjust, and your results will be better.