Infrared

[DrM]

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Hi,

I'm a newbie on infrared photography, and I want to know what works/not.. My kit is M11,21SEM,35APO,50 LuxII. Are all these lenses ok for infrared? What wavelength filters should I get for what effect. Any changes in focus/exposure etc... ?

Hope you guys can get me started with tips, tricks, references..

Best regards,

Marc

[frame-it]

50 lux and 90 apo work very well in IR, 50 lux can get a hotspot from f4, 90APO gets a hotspot around ~f16

older vintage lenses with no/fewer coatings and fewer elements work even better.

Edited January 19, 2024 by frame-it

[hmzimelka]

The problem is the M11 isn't terribly sensitive to infrared, to the point you'll likely only be using a 715nm filter, with which you shouldn't be running into any hot spots with most lenses anyways.

I had the filters, and gave up pursuing it... just wasn't worth the long exposure times and loss in quality due to interpolation artefacts towards the edges. ( I forget the technical term for these)

I would buy one small 39mm filter for your APO lenses and try that out. Also bear in mind that the M cameras tend to leak light through the lens mount so you'll have to also get a hair scrunchy or elastic and cover up the lens mount when your lens is attached. 

 

 

Exposure comparison: Normal colour exposure 1/350 sec. Filtered with a B+W 720 IR or Deep Red filter, 2 sec. For what its worth, taken in middle of summer here.

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Some other examples.

 

 

 

[250swb]

I've got no idea how the M11 sensor responds to IR light but a rangefinder is a perfect camera to use for IR given you'll be able to see your composition without having to take the filter off. The standard IR filter is a RG 715nm or 88A. While you can use the high ISO of the M11 for hand holding I would still recommend a tripod so you can stop the lens down a bit, and the DOF will then overcome any focus issues. Your cameras meter should compensate for the almost black filter, if not you'll have to go full manual and use the filter factor calculation which is to add seven stops.

[farnz]

Marc,

It's essential to remember that the focal plane of a lens with visible light is different to its focal plane with infrared light.  This means that if you focus as normal with your viewfinder and lens's focussing ring when shooting in infrared then the objects you want to be in focus will be out of focus.  Some older lenses have a red R on the focussing ring to indicate how much focus offset is needed if you use visible light to focus.  You 'dial' in the offset on the focus ring and your objects in infrared should be in focus.

As mentioned by others, it's unlikely that the M11 will offer much response to infrared because it has a strong infrared-blocking filter over its sensor to prevent bleed-in of infrared light from affecting colours.

I have used my M8 a lot for hand-held infrared photography because its sensor's infrared-blocking filter is very weak and allows enough infrared rays to reach the sensor. 

As far as filters are concerned I prefer to use a 850 nm "black" infrared-pass filter (which blocks visible light) because it produces stark white foliage and dark skies, which I prefer. 

"Red" infrared-pass filters typically operate at 680 to 720 nm and allow a little visible light to bleed through.  This offers the opportunity for what's called 'faux infrared' photography where the RGB colour channels can be swapped around during post-processing to produce, say, green skies and red foliage.  This doesn't interest me so I haven't used these filters.

Pete.

[darylgo]

Hi Marc,

All the digital M's tested through the M10 family leak infrared because of weak filtration.  I haven't tested the M11 but would assume due to physical limitations it leaks similar to the M9, M240 and M10 bodies.  You'll want lots of light to reach your sensor when using the B+W 092 or Hoya R72 filters.  Use the 50mm Summilux wide open and a high iso (iso 6400 on the M240) to get shutter speeds barely adequate for handheld photography mid day in bright sunshine.  Leica lenses are surprising good at properly focusing IR light using the rangefinder but I like to verify this using live view either with the rear lcd or visoflex.   

With this combination the images will look very red from the large amount of visible red light that passes through the filter along with the IR,  if you want pure IR photography then shoot with a 093 B+W filter, this will require a tripod.  The resulting red images shot with the 092 filter will require post processing and it's here you can move a few sliders in lightroom or take a deep dive into profiles and more extensive editing.  

https://www.lifepixel.com/tutorials

If you want to try channel swapping the diglloyd pay site has actions and javascripts that can be automate the whole process.   

https://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MONO/publish/actions-readme.html?dglyPT=true

 

 

 

[DrM]

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Dear all,

Thank you for the good starting points. I’ll read up a bit more and probably get the >800nm filter in 46mm with setup adapter. 
Is there any advantage to use the 35Apo in terms of correction? 
 

Best

Marc

[farnz]

6 minutes ago, DrM said:

Is there any advantage to use the 35Apo in terms of correction?

I wouldn't have thought so since the apochromatic part of the 35 APO lens is all about getting the three R, G, and B wavelengths to overlap perfectly on the same spot in the image but your >800 nm filter will block those anyway. 

Despite having had the opportunity to discuss with Peter Karbe in detail what "APO" really means in Leica world 'these days' but coming away with a feeling that it is now a nebulous term that more or less equates to 'super-duper' in some way, I can't offer more than the above to your question.

Pete.

[Jeff S]

APO…marketing for ‘Awesome Photo Output’ (and probably ‘Awesome Profit Outcome’ for Leica). 

Jeff

[jaapv]

The best IR lens I know is the Summarit 1.5/5cm  The Hektor 13.5 cm is also excellent.

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, darylgo said:

Hi Marc,

All the digital M's tested through the M10 family leak infrared because of weak filtration.  I haven't tested the M11 but would assume due to physical limitations it leaks similar to the M9, M240 and M10 bodies.  You'll want lots of light to reach your sensor when using the B+W 092 or Hoya R72 filters.  Use the 50mm Summilux wide open and a high iso (iso 6400 on the M240) to get shutter speeds barely adequate for handheld photography mid day in bright sunshine.  Leica lenses are surprising good at properly focusing IR light using the rangefinder but I like to verify this using live view either with the rear lcd or visoflex.   

With this combination the images will look very red from the large amount of visible red light that passes through the filter along with the IR,  if you want pure IR photography then shoot with a 093 B+W filter, this will require a tripod.  The resulting red images shot with the 092 filter will require post processing and it's here you can move a few sliders in lightroom or take a deep dive into profiles and more extensive editing.  

https://www.lifepixel.com/tutorials

If you want to try channel swapping the diglloyd pay site has actions and javascripts that can be automate the whole process.   

https://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MONO/publish/actions-readme.html?dglyPT=true

 

 

 

Due to chromatic shift the starting point for experimenting with focus is about one stop down from central on the DOF scale. Apo lenses do slightly better. Some M cameras like the M8 and M240 can be used handheld with a 093 filter.

[darylgo]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Due to chromatic shift the starting point for experimenting with focus is about one stop down from central on the DOF scale. Apo lenses do slightly better. Some M cameras like the M8 and M240 can be used handheld with a 093 filter.

Thanks jaapv.  Really, 093/M240 handheld?  Are the results sharp or blurred?  

@DrM A good read:

https://luminous-landscape.com/leica-m8-infrared/

[jaapv]

Sharp. After the M8 the M240 is more sensitive than the M9.  I have not looked into IR for quite a while, but I did experiment quite a bit back then. I’ll have a look if I can dig up something. I think there is a 093 shot in one of the forum books. 

[J S H]

Check out these threads for some examples of what the M11 can do with a 720nm filter. 720 is the sweet spot, as exposure times get too long with any cutoff above there. You will find filter specifics and exposure times for the images I have uploaded. 

 

 

[ianforber]

I like the M11 for infrared photography. 720nm isn’t much good but you get a decent response at 780 and it’s possible to handhold using that filter. 830nm is the best for me but that needs to be on a tripod. Personally, I find it best to set the ISO at 800 or 1600 but have gone up as far as 5000. I like to keep the shutter speed short to avoid blur due to breeze. I always want everything in focus so try for f11, which helps avoid any focusing issues with IR. Hair scrunchy is definitely needed for longer exposures. 

[hmzimelka]

17 hours ago, ianforber said:

I like the M11 for infrared photography. 720nm isn’t much good but you get a decent response at 780 and it’s possible to handhold using that filter. 830nm is the best for me but that needs to be on a tripod. Personally, I find it best to set the ISO at 800 or 1600 but have gone up as far as 5000. I like to keep the shutter speed short to avoid blur due to breeze. I always want everything in focus so try for f11, which helps avoid any focusing issues with IR. Hair scrunchy is definitely needed for longer exposures. 

Have you got some examples images of the 780 and 830nm? My curiosity is peaked 🙃

[ianforber]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:58 AM, hmzimelka said:

Have you got some examples images of the 780 and 830nm? My curiosity is peaked 🙃

Examples but not as good as the ones above. They’re all test shots rather than aiming for good photos. All taken with a 50mm Summicron v5. 

One here (of people sitting on Wimbledon Common) was taken on a sunny day with the 780nm just to test of it could be handheld. It was f16, 1/320s at ISO 5000. I think I could do better by altering the aperture to f11, reducing the ISO and with better technique. Or putting it on a tripod!

The second is looking over the Thames from Richmond Hill taken on a 830nm filter.  ISO 3200, f16 at 1.7s. It was a sunny day but in winter so no leaves on the trees to make it a dramatic IR effect  

The third is of a river in the Lake District ISO 800, f16 and 0.7s. Overcast day. 

 

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