Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[Tseg]

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22 hours ago, Surge said:

Having used my M11-P for a few days, I honestly don’t see what the negative fuss is about.

Stop with the facts…. There’ll be nothing left to discuss on these forum’s.

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[Surge]

20 hours ago, jaapv said:

And skin is a layered structure with semi-transparant layers  of varying thickness that reflect light differently. Epidermis, small veins, fatty tissue, and more. As soon as the blood flow changes the skin tone changes, metamerism between the layers will give different results on a camera than in the human eye-brain processing chain, and so forth. Reducing to a single "skin tone is guaranteed to give false results.

Absolutely correct! That’s mainly why it’s so difficult to measure skin tone.

[CDodkin]

23 hours ago, Surge said:

Having used my M11-P for a few days, I honestly don’t see what the negative fuss is about. Color balance in about 50% of the cases is better than in my M10 SOOC. In the other cases, it’s easily adjusted in post. In camera JPEGs look great, even in challenging lighting conditions (I don’t have high expectations for JPEGs but they look totally usable).

If you look at the color calibration card comparisons that Thorsten did, as I am doing now on my calibrated Apple XDR display, and I have the actual Datacolor card in front of me in a light box with D65 lighting — it’s obvious that the M11 colors are a closer representation of the actual colors on the calibration card. The M10-R Blue is not blue, it’s a purplish-blue. Blue Sky is closest in the M11, the M9 and M10s rendition of Blue Sky is not even close to how it looks on the card. I have never seen a blue sky in the color rendered by the M10-R/P and M9.

Perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that there is so much negativity when a new body is introduced. We see this every time here on the Leica forums. I would love to correlate the M10 lovers with the M10 haters when it was launched 😅.

Anyway, I am selling my M10 and keeping the M11-P — it’s a Huge upgrade over the M10 and even the M10-R. The resolution (especially with the APO lenses) and dynamic range, battery life, automatic Geo-tagging, and on and on make this a no brainer, in my view.

[By way of background: I am not a professional photographer but I hold the patent, and invented the technology that most accurately measures skin tones in the world. (It is B2B only.) We employ several PhD color scientists and have spent the better part of the last decade researching how digital cameras see color, especially skin tones. So I know a thing or two about color accuracy, you could say.]

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What you've shown is that under calibrated D65 illuminant, the color space setup on the M11 is well calibrated (as you'd expect). What the M11's issue appears to be, is AWB under the natural daylight conditions experienced outside, at the location of the shooter. Actual daylight can/does vary depending on the time of day, latitude, altitude, weather conditions, etc, and whilst the M11 does a reasonable job at extrapolating the temp from an image using AWB, it repeatedly fails to calculate the tint correctly, leading to a magenta offset of a variable amount. When presented with a calibrated neutral transmission target (best case scenario for WB), the in-camera 'Grey Card' calibration provides both accurate temp and tint for the illumination at that time and place. The difference between the two settings is quite significant.

[Stevejack]

On 1/19/2025 at 10:53 PM, CDodkin said:

What you've shown is that under calibrated D65 illuminant, the color space setup on the M11 is well calibrated (as you'd expect). What the M11's issue appears to be, is AWB under the natural daylight conditions experienced outside, at the location of the shooter. Actual daylight can/does vary depending on the time of day, latitude, altitude, weather conditions, etc, and whilst the M11 does a reasonable job at extrapolating the temp from an image using AWB, it repeatedly fails to calculate the tint correctly, leading to a magenta offset of a variable amount. When presented with a calibrated neutral transmission target (best case scenario for WB), the in-camera 'Grey Card' calibration provides both accurate temp and tint for the illumination at that time and place. The difference between the two settings is quite significant.

I had my M11 set to daylight rather than AWB, and it was giving me magenta skies on the DNG but nice blue skies on the Jpeg. I'm not sure why the Jpeg was so different, perhaps it's how Lightroom treated the DNG conversion? This was early firmware. 

Set to shoot DNG + JPG, Here's how the DNG compares with the Jpeg in Lightroom, no adjustments made other than importing the files. The sky definitely didn't look that purple on the day. This is with the M11 + 50mm APO. Daylight white balance.   I'm not saying the Jpeg is 100% colour correct either, but it's an interesting difference. 

 

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[kiwidad]

On 1/16/2025 at 7:13 PM, _tc said:

that is not a person with a great track record for transparency or honesty 🤷‍♂️

Can comment to that, but he is correct! 

2 observations, is this a 6 bit encoding issue where lens coatings may have changed but the encoding doesn’t know it?

Is is a case of the sun being the wrong color or something in the image influencing the color balance?

I have seen unexplained colors shifts going back to the Fujichrome and Cibachrome days

stick a color meter on 90% of modern studio strobes and click at two different power levels if you want to see color shifts!

[Surge]

On 1/19/2025 at 9:53 AM, CDodkin said:

What you've shown is that under calibrated D65 illuminant, the color space setup on the M11 is well calibrated (as you'd expect). What the M11's issue appears to be, is AWB under the natural daylight conditions experienced outside, at the location of the shooter. Actual daylight can/does vary depending on the time of day, latitude, altitude, weather conditions, etc, and whilst the M11 does a reasonable job at extrapolating the temp from an image using AWB, it repeatedly fails to calculate the tint correctly, leading to a magenta offset of a variable amount. When presented with a calibrated neutral transmission target (best case scenario for WB), the in-camera 'Grey Card' calibration provides both accurate temp and tint for the illumination at that time and place. The difference between the two settings is quite significant.

I don’t agree that it “repeatedly fails to calculate the tint correctly”. In my M10, AWB tint is too green most of the time. AWB is just a guess, as you noted. And there is evidence that Leica was trying to emulate a certain film color, so the tint is intentional. 

Edited January 21 by Surge

[Olaf_ZG]

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On 1/16/2025 at 3:54 PM, Almizilero said:

So maybe ... Purple is Leicas new Black?

They started this with the m8, so it is not new… 😎

[Deeetona]

I thought all the hardcore pros here only shoot RAW?

[Stevejack]

1 hour ago, Deeetona said:

I thought all the hardcore pros here only shoot RAW?

Not sure who you're directing this to but it's the RAW files which have the magenta issue, not the jpegs (at least in my case). 

[contre-la-montre]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Stevejack:

I had my M11 set to daylight rather than AWB, and it was giving me magenta skies on the DNG but nice blue skies on the Jpeg. I'm not sure why the Jpeg was so different, perhaps it's how Lightroom treated the DNG conversion? This was early firmware. 

(…)

Same strange results with my M11-P  - and not only in LR but also in other apps. BTW my M11-P updated to latest firmware…

Thanks for reporting this!

[lldd]

For those having the tint issue, how prevalent is it?  What percentage of your photos are impacted?  Has anyone figured out which lighting conditions trigger this?  I'm considering purchasing the camera, but this issue gives me pause.  Thanks for any insights.

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, lldd said:

For those having the tint issue, how prevalent is it?  What percentage of your photos are impacted?  Has anyone figured out which lighting conditions trigger this?  I'm considering purchasing the camera, but this issue gives me pause.  Thanks for any insights.

Well I owned the M11 on release, used it for a year and sold it when the M11M came along. But I’m getting another one now for colour work. It didn’t bother me it was just something noticeable  

To be honest I generally shoot in black and white so when I had the M11 I would set the picture profile to black and white (so that I saw a black and white image in the visoflex), and all my DNG files were converted to black and white on import. So I never really saw colour during my process unless I made the conscious decision to switch back to shooting in colour for that day. 
 

it was noticeable in scenes with lots of blues, but far less noticeable indoors or in the absence of skies. It’s pretty simple to fix, though if your work is colour critical it might annoy you more having to go and make tweaks. 
 

I have the camera set to always shoot in daylight white balance, so if I do need to make a correction I can easily apply it to all other photos in the session. Shooting in AWB makes it trickier because the effect shot to shot could be different. 

[Photoworks]

18 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I have the camera set to always shoot in daylight white balance, so if I do need to make a correction I can easily apply it to all other photos in the session. Shooting in AWB makes it trickier because the effect shot to shot could be different. 

Why would that make a difference?  If you shoot in the same room with different color temperatures and apply a 5000k correction they will all look like 5000k!

[jgeenen]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Photoworks:

Why would that make a difference?  If you shoot in the same room with different color temperatures and apply a 5000k correction they will all look like 5000k!

Because the camera does not know that it is the same room. Additionally, it cannot measure the color temperature of the light source, it tries to calculate the best color temperature according to what is hitting the sensor. Consequently the AWB setting will change based on the composition of color in the scene.

[Photoworks]

14 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

Because the camera does not know that it is the same room. Additionally, it cannot measure the color temperature of the light source, it tries to calculate the best color temperature according to what is hitting the sensor. Consequently the AWB setting will change based on the composition of color in the scene.

it only makes a difference on the JPG edit,  in raw it does not make a difference. It didn't sound like he was editing JPG's

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

Why would that make a difference?  If you shoot in the same room with different color temperatures and apply a 5000k correction they will all look like 5000k!

@Stevejack talks about applying the same correction to all fotos. With AWB this is not possible.

Edited January 22 by M11 for me

[Stevejack]

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Why would that make a difference?  If you shoot in the same room with different color temperatures and apply a 5000k correction they will all look like 5000k!

As @jgeenen and @M11 for me mentioned, the AWB will shift under what we would consider to be the same lighting conditions. The only way to truly be able to apply a global white balance edit to the entire session of images is to shoot with a defined white balance. 

It's the same reason for shooting manual rather than AutoISO, windows / dark cabinets / etc. can throw off the light meter and give you wildly varying exposures from one shot to another. It makes correcting a batch of images laborious. 

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

it only makes a difference on the JPG edit,  in raw it does not make a difference. It didn't sound like he was editing JPG's

Unfortunately I only shot RAW + JPEG the first few times I used the camera, so I don't have a lot of examples comparing them.  With new cameras I like to see how Leica believes the images should look (JPG) versus how Lightroom converts the RAW file. But no, I don't use the JPEGs for anything and haven't tried to edit them.
The difference manually setting the camera's white balance makes with RAW files is consistency across a session. I always use daylight white balance (regardless of whether I'm shooting during day / night / interior / exterior) and then apply one correction to all images after import, if needed. 

Otherwise you end up in a situation where you're trying to match your white balance between two shots, and if you have a sequence of shots it can become a pain to match them up. AWB just causes more headaches for a RAW shooter. I don't use JPEGs out of camera so I don't know what that workflow would look like, but maybe AWB makes more sense for a Jpeg shooter.

[Photoworks]

I don't see why, I just tried it here and it works just fine.

Lightroom had an exposure match function that can take care the differences of that. I use capture one and it is all the same.

When you apply a correction to white balance you would say 4500k and 0.3 tint on the sliders. 

What you are suggesting is applying a correction to +500k and more tint to each photo, not sure my software works that way.

I can see in extreme situations that it becomes more difficult.

 

 

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[hdmesa]

17 hours ago, Stevejack said:

As @jgeenen and @M11 for me mentioned, the AWB will shift under what we would consider to be the same lighting conditions. The only way to truly be able to apply a global white balance edit to the entire session of images is to shoot with a defined white balance. 

It's the same reason for shooting manual rather than AutoISO, windows / dark cabinets / etc. can throw off the light meter and give you wildly varying exposures from one shot to another. It makes correcting a batch of images laborious. 

Unfortunately I only shot RAW + JPEG the first few times I used the camera, so I don't have a lot of examples comparing them.  With new cameras I like to see how Leica believes the images should look (JPG) versus how Lightroom converts the RAW file. But no, I don't use the JPEGs for anything and haven't tried to edit them.
The difference manually setting the camera's white balance makes with RAW files is consistency across a session. I always use daylight white balance (regardless of whether I'm shooting during day / night / interior / exterior) and then apply one correction to all images after import, if needed. 

Otherwise you end up in a situation where you're trying to match your white balance between two shots, and if you have a sequence of shots it can become a pain to match them up. AWB just causes more headaches for a RAW shooter. I don't use JPEGs out of camera so I don't know what that workflow would look like, but maybe AWB makes more sense for a Jpeg shooter.

What? In LRC or C1, you're applying a set white balance to a group of photos, you're not applying a shift to their existing white balance. 

[Stevejack]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

What? In LRC or C1, you're applying a set white balance to a group of photos, you're not applying a shift to their existing white balance. 

I might be misunderstanding you, but that's not how I do it no - I don't choose a different white balance option in Lightroom from the dropdown list, I only adjust the sliders to where I want them and then apply that adjustment to the rest of the images.