M6 Shutter Problems at 1/1000?

[shawn2nd]

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Hey guys, 

Looking for some insights here, this is a roll of TMAX 3200 I developed today, I'm seeing some recurring issues here specifically at the end of the roll. These were all shot yesterday, around midday so I had the camera at f16 and 1/1000 to try and still make the 3200 film speed usable. 

I've attached a picture of what I'm seeing, but essentially the images are completely dark towards the left side, and I think this may be a shutter issue? The rest of the roll looked fine with the shots at night / indoors with slower shutter speeds. 

In case it helps and maybe it was a developing issue, I developed in HC-110 dilution B for 10:30 minutes. 

Think my assumption is right and perhaps the M6 is due for a CLA? 

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[pegelli]

I think it's indeed a shutter issue, where it seems the second curtain is trying to overtake the first one, essentially reducing the size of the split as the curtains move along.

You might waste another roll and run through a series of different shutter times and see if it only happens at 1/1000 or also at longer times.

 

But I think you'll end up with a CLA anyway, and maybe even new shutter curtains.

How old is your camera? My M2 from 1958 got a new set of curtains in the late 70's/early 80's (can't remember exactly when) and again in 2020.

 

 

[shawn2nd]

@pegelli I bought it used this summer. It’s from 1992 and the guy I bought it from also bought it used in 2021, and never CLA’d it so no idea when it was done last. Assuming it is a shutter problem, do you think it’s still safe to use the middle handheld speeds from 1/50 - say 1/250 ? I’m leaving for a holiday tomorrow anted wanted to take the M6 but I’d hate to have a bunch of shots ruined and may play it safe and instead just go digital 😞

[TomB_tx]

This is a common issue with aging cameras at the highest speeds.it will probably be less at 1/500 and much less at 1/250. If you avoid the highest speeds you should have good results. It's slightly possible that it will get better as the camera is used a lot, but is shows that lubricants are drying out, so a CLA is a good idea when you can do it.

I have collected a lot of cameras from the 1030s through 1950s, and most of them show this to some extent at top speeds - until I get them serviced. (I've never used Leica's service dept for such things.)

[Tom R]

Looks like a curtain or shutter problem. Because it's occurs (or is noticed) at 1/1000, you might be looking at a master roller replacement. I had both the small curtain and the master roller replaced on one of my M4-P bodies this year; not cheap, but this camera sounds, feels, and operates like new. Given the costs of purchasing Leica M film cameras, this kind of repair, done by a competent technician, is a good investment.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Tom R

[Chuck Albertson]

Shutter bounce. An easy fix by a trained tech.

[shawn2nd]

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Thanks all, then the search for a Leica tech begins 🙂

I’m based in Germany, so besides the obvious choice of Leica, if anyone has recommendations in the EU that would be great 🙂

[pegelli]

15 minutes ago, shawn2nd said:

Thanks all, then the search for a Leica tech begins 🙂

I’m based in Germany, so besides the obvious choice of Leica, if anyone has recommendations in the EU that would be great 🙂

My M2 (and a couple of lenses) were done by Will van Manen and Cathy Kuiper at Kamera Service, Zoetermeer (Netherlands): Kamera Service Website

Not fast but excellent work and reasonably priced.

 

And regarding your other question, I wouldn't take it on a vacation as my only camera without some kind of quick test of the middle speeds to see how these negatives come out. My guess is they would come out OK, but my guess has no guarantee and my guesses have been wrong many times in the past, so YMMV 😉

Edited November 18, 2023 by pegelli

[shawn2nd]

@pegelli C'est la vie lol. As much as I'd like to capture some moments in the Philippines with the Leica, I think it'll only stress me out wondering if the shots are actually gonna work or not 😞

Here's my whole last roll, also with the problematic pictures from the first screenshot https://lightroom.adobe.com/shares/787019339b6e483399acbd6ef527655b

It the settings where I'm clearly shooting lower shutter speeds, seems to be no issue. 

But I think for the trip, I'm gonna bring the Ricoh GR3 (was gonna come anyways, it always does 🙂 ) and for film I have an old 1980's Ricoh FF3 Point and Shoot. It ain't no Leica, but it's 100% functional haha. 

If anyone else has any comments on what they would do on this situation, would be cool haha. 

[pegelli]

14 minutes ago, shawn2nd said:

Here's my whole last roll, also with the problematic pictures from the first screenshot https://lightroom.adobe.com/shares/787019339b6e483399acbd6ef527655b

Agree, there's many examples that look to be OK, only the obvious ones in bright light show the dark left side

[spydrxx]

Many older cameras are known to have inaccurate high shutter speeds, for whatever reason. When you compound this with a curtain issue, you most definitely have the potential to lose some shots. I've found having both repaired by a competent technician resulted in worry-free shooting.

[shawn2nd]

Yep, I'm likely gonna send it to Leica when I'm back from my holiday. 

[spydrxx]

Personally I'd choose an independent known technician, unless it is under warranty. The Leica repair wait line and quality control, IMHO, are just horrible.

[shawn2nd]

21 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

Personally I'd choose an independent known technician, unless it is under warranty. The Leica repair wait line and quality control, IMHO, are just horrible.

@spydrxx I'm open to it, however I did find this post from another user with shutter issues, and if the camera can completely get overhauled and be good as new, I'm keen to having Leica do this. If I'll get similar results as him for roughly 1000€ I see that as fair in my book. If I can find a recommendation of an independent tech that would also do a similar overall here in the EU, I'd be open to that too. 

 

6 hours ago, pegelli said:

My M2 (and a couple of lenses) were done by Will van Manen and Cathy Kuiper at Kamera Service, Zoetermeer (Netherlands): Kamera Service Website

 

@pegelli I've contact them on their website with my query. Based on what I've written above, can you comment to the expected service, will it also be more of a full overhaul of the camera, or what has your experience been? 

[pegelli]

17 minutes ago, shawn2nd said:

I've contact them on their website with my query. Based on what I've written above, can you comment to the expected service, will it also be more of a full overhaul of the camera, or what has your experience been? 

No problem. They only do complete CLA's and adjust the rangefinder and calibrate the shutter times. No "part jobs". When they tried the shutter they noticed the shutter curtains became too stiff which meant they couldn't adjust it within spec and had to be replaced. In 2020 I paid € 285 for the CLA and € 150 for replacing the curtains together with the CLA. These prices are excl. 21% BTW (VAT), shipping cost and a small charge for small parts/materials, but since it was done together with three lenses I don't know how much is that for the camera alone.  Only replacing the curtains without the CLA is probably more expensive (if they even want to do it). I brought my stuff there early March and it was ready mid-May. My M2 has been flawless and operating "as new" since then.

I don't know how much the prices and/or waiting times went up in the last years I think you might expect an increase in both.

[shawn2nd]

@pegelli fair enough and thanks for the info! I'll definitely do a follow up once I'm back.

[shawn2nd]

Anyone have experienced with Amsterdam Camera Repair? I Found them on a Leica Reddit recommended by two users. Al they’re quoting me 395€ for the full overhaul CLA + costs for any major parts like shutter curtains with a 10 week turnaround. Seems faster and cheaper than Leica, trying to find some experiences that've been had from LUF members 🙂

[a.noctilux]

Sorry I don't have direct experience with them.

My opinion is "too cheap to be true".

For many years that I had my Ms CLAed in France, repairers told me that to dismantle/remount one Leica M, it should take them about ten hours.

So if I count only work no parts, 395 = 10h x 39.5 Euros, it's cheap.

...

Second thing, repairers only quote me after receiving (to have a look of things to do ) the M, so serious repairers would not quote before having a look at the M.

 

Anyway, this can be very good news for M user, if true.

...

My last CLAed M4 cost me 550 Euros (500 only for work).

Edited November 20, 2023 by a.noctilux

[shawn2nd]

@a.noctilux seems like maybe the Netherlands May actually just be cheaper. I also got a just got Quote back from Kamera Express which was recommended in this thread, and they quoted 410€ for the work costs for the CLA + additional costs for specific major parts. 

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