Guest Essemmlee Posted November 21, 2007 Share #41 Posted November 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) May I ask the question - do Leica read the threads in this forum? If so I would be mortified, gratified and confused in equal measures. There are those who won't criticise Leica, those who freely will and those like me who sit on the fence. My M8 has never given me a minutes bother and I have taken the best pictures of my life since I owned it. Occasionally it is a pain in the arse, but when I print those sharp images all is forgiven. I love to read all the technical bollocks on here about back focus, EV's, ISO's, Lens data but the bottom line is the pictures are supreme. Everything is forgiven because of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 21, 2007 Posted November 21, 2007 Hi Guest Essemmlee, Take a look here Question on purchase of M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Shootist Posted November 21, 2007 Share #42 Posted November 21, 2007 I agree and disagree with your statements. It seems there are some that are just not satisfied with the M8 but refuse to move on and or are happy with the images but can't get over the cameras idiosyncrasies, whether they knew about them before buying the camera or not (which if they didn't know about them I find hard to believe and that is totally there fault). Then there are people like me who truely love using a Leica rangefinder, ANY Leica RF, but still berate Leica for there shortcomings when needed. I have done that in the recent past about service, or the lack there of, but gloss over the percieved problems with the M8. I have never really had a problem with the 3 M8's I have owned, other then the problems I knew about BEFORE I layed down my cash. If the AWB was never fixed or if they never changed the way you change the ISO, EV Comp or AWB/WB it wouldn't bother me one bit. I have a 6 year old vehicle that I bought new and it only has a single disc CD player and no front panel input so I can't plug in my MP3 player and you know what I have never asked or berated the manufacturer for changes. It is what it is and I knew about it before I bought it. Just like I did before buying a M8. I certainly don't sit on the fence and If I have a problem I go to the source, Leica, which I have done several times over the last 10+ months. I will also post here about the problems/shortcomings also but I don't harp on them post after post. If whatever problems I have had bothered me so much that I felt I need to put them into almost every post I made to this forum I would of moved on a long time ago. May I ask the question - do Leica read the threads in this forum? If so I would be mortified, gratified and confused in equal measures. There are those who won't criticise Leica, those who freely will and those like me who sit on the fence. My M8 has never given me a minutes bother and I have taken the best pictures of my life since I owned it. Occasionally it is a pain in the arse, but when I print those sharp images all is forgiven. I love to read all the technical bollocks on here about back focus, EV's, ISO's, Lens data but the bottom line is the pictures are supreme. Everything is forgiven because of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted November 21, 2007 Share #43 Posted November 21, 2007 Your interpretation. Leica said the risk of error is too big and do not want to implement it because a simple error can ruin even your raw files. It's a wonder they allow us to set our own exposure. Not ignored. Leica answered that the precision is not good enough so they prefer not to include the data. Again the photographer should be the judge of what is useful to them. The whole 6-bit coding correction software is imprecise and based on ball park figures. Distance and aperture which are needed for precise corrections are not factored in. So the whole not precise enough explanation holds about as much water as the you might make a mistake if we let you control your cameras functions explanation. Once again, Leica has been quite clear: there are a lot of functions which can be included in a digital camera. For the time being, they are sticking to the M philosophy and trying to keep the camera as simple as possible with just a few functions and concentrating on image quality. If you want a lof of menus & options, buy another brand. Same as 3. . Burying ISO and EV controls in an LCD menu is about what you would expect from another brand. Not simple or M like at all and one of the biggest design flaws on the camera. If I wanted to play with LCD menus I could have gotten any of a 1,000 digicams. I never found them arrogant when it comes to the M8. Quite the contrary indeed: They have always been willing to discuss with customers about the issues and to fix them. And they fixed a lot of them because the M8 was on the market too soon, with some huge problems (including QA). Also, the published a FAQ, several firmwares, gave interviews about their choices and the future discussed a lot with Guy Mancuso, Sean Reid and others about what the M8 users community wants . I think when it looked like Leica's make it or break it product: the M8 was going to go down in flames they where very receptive to feedback. Now that the rocky introduction is behind them they seem to have reverted to pretty much business as usual for every camera manufacturer. You don't make money tuning the last product for customers who bought it, you make money selling the next big thing. Sean who seemed optimistic about changes discussed just announced on his survey thread Leica has informed him nothing would be done. That's to bad because Leica had the opportunity to follow a different road that I think would have been better for their business. Creating a better service infrastructure and getting a handle on QC don't happen overnight and are not cheap. How much would it cost to throw customers a bone and provide some immediate value added through some improvements via firmware. It's not charity it's just good business. Still it's a digital camera with an M finder, about the size of an M and it takes M lenses and all the alternatives are DSLR's. Not hard to be best in class when you have no competition. So I'll continue to use and enjoy using the M8 but I'm more then a bit disappointed in Leica's recent decisions about the camera. I was hoping for better from the company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Essemmlee Posted November 21, 2007 Share #44 Posted November 21, 2007 So - does anyone know whether Leica read these messages? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 21, 2007 Share #45 Posted November 21, 2007 So - does anyone know whether Leica read these messages? I don't think so, at least not the majority of them. Maybe they did when Leica actually ran the forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 21, 2007 Share #46 Posted November 21, 2007 No camera is perfect, no camera is 100% reliable across all the examples sold. The M8 is no exception. I've enjoyed the M8 everytime I've used it, but if a better camera came along made by another manufacturer - and by this I mean a better camera for _me_ - I'd probably buy that. At this point in time the M8 is the best camera I've ever used. Note that _I've_ ever used, and I suspect that what I'll replace it with will be an M9 rather than a Canon or a Nikon. Like Ed if AWB was never improved, if the method of changing EV and ISO remained the same, I'd be perfectly happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 21, 2007 Share #47 Posted November 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) So - does anyone know whether Leica read these messages? So ask your cousin :D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Essemmlee Posted November 21, 2007 Share #48 Posted November 21, 2007 Was I a Leica employee I would read threads like this everyday for marketing purposes. The feedback is generally positive and there are plenty of ideas for the future based an actual user input. They may ignore those ideas but that is their choice, as it was ours to buy the camera in the first place. I knew of the faults before I bought because of the information on this forum, and I still bought. The original question on this thread is a great source of inspiration for marketing types and they really ought to listen to the comments. The M8 is still a great camera and despite all it of its idiosyncrasies my D200 hasn't seen the light of day for 6 months. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted November 21, 2007 Share #49 Posted November 21, 2007 As someone who has had a love hate realtionship with the M8 I so agree with several posters here that: AWB and EV setting is fine..please Leica do not change it. Camera IQ is very good once you know which lenses work best (in my case the older ones) I still get zebra lines occasionally, but after its trip to Solms, I have not had any lock up or SDS or whatever. The Zebra lines are probably resolved in latest firmware which I have not upgraded to. Earlier this year I nearly threw it in the Meditarranean Sea after it died on me,,,but after a couple of months of staying away from it I now enjoy it a lot. I understand its quirks and can now live with them...they don't bother me anymore. It is a great camera as it is. andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 21, 2007 Share #50 Posted November 21, 2007 Zebra strips are only seen when you use Auto Review. Simply the camera has to much to do immediately after taking the shot on some shots so it get confused and shows strips. I have never seen they strips on any of the 3 M8's I've had/have, but then again I don't use the Auto Review. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted November 21, 2007 Share #51 Posted November 21, 2007 As someone who has had a love hate realtionship with the M8 I so agree with several posters here that: AWB and EV setting is fine..please Leica do not change it. Any additional EV ISO features in firmware would have been optionally set by the photographer so would have been invisible to those who were not interested in the additional functionality. Without on the fly EV control the AE function is really not up to pro use and so it will be manual exposure for me. Not the end of the world but if you are going to bother putting in AE execute it better then the functionality of a point and shoot. ISO on the fly would have been just as useful and is a unique advantage of digital over film. The essence of an M is total control in the hands of the photographer through simple analogue controls. Fiddling with menus on LCD's while shooting should be left for video games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted November 21, 2007 Share #52 Posted November 21, 2007 Ed...Agree with your comment...and not a big deal. Hank...completely accept and understand your viewpoint,,different needs require different solutions as always. cheers andy p.s am still pleased I didn't throw it in the Med:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Ortego Posted November 21, 2007 Share #53 Posted November 21, 2007 So - does anyone know whether Leica read these messages? Not likely since they were not even aware about their software package being incompatible with Leopard until Guy advised them just recently. They are completely aloof as to the real world of customer feedback and business integrity. I do in fact love my M8 despite my comments although I expected a bit more refinement from a so called premier camera. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted November 21, 2007 Share #54 Posted November 21, 2007 Ed...Agree with your comment...and not a big deal. Hank...completely accept and understand your viewpoint,,different needs require different solutions as always. cheers andy p.s am still pleased I didn't throw it in the Med:D Well if you asked me if I would buy the M8 again knowing what I know now. The answer would be yes, without reservation. If your idea of heaven is the ergonomics of a film M then it's no contest even if the M8 has fallen short on any number of details. Who else is making a digital rangefinder. I should qualify that I am shooting digital exclusively so the film M is not an option. If I was happy shooting film that would be another story, especially if I was a B+W shooter. In that case I might wait for the M9. On the firmware issues the LCD on an M should be reserved for maintenance functions like sensor cleaning, firmware updates, card formating and set it and forget it preferences like file format (jpg, raw, raw + jpg), lens recognition, auto preview settings. The LCD should never come in to play on an M during actual shooting. There are some other issues which can't really be fixed until a new model. Like the lack of sound insulation for the shutter, the lack of purchase for your hand when holding the camera and the notchy gritty feel of the shutter. I hope Leica takes these crucial details into account in developing the M9. Finally, to put it in perspective I must say I'm happy that we even have an M8. It's a miracle Leica has survived and that there exists a company plowing serious resources into providing a digital solution for the tiny RF market. I guess my frustration stems from the fact that I have higher expectations for Leica then I would for the average cameras manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 21, 2007 Share #55 Posted November 21, 2007 The LCD should never come in to play on an M during actual shooting. I can't remember off the top of my head, but can't this be switched off? If not then just don't look at it. Works everytime IMHO <grin> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted November 21, 2007 Share #56 Posted November 21, 2007 I can't remember off the top of my head, but can't this be switched off? If not then just don't look at it. Works everytime IMHO <grin> I'm not talking about auto-preview I'm talking about controlling EV and ISO on the fly. You must access the LCD menu for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 21, 2007 Share #57 Posted November 21, 2007 I'm not talking about auto-preview I'm talking about controlling EV and ISO on the fly. You must access the LCD menu for that. Well that would be fine if the M8 had some other LCD screen or had more LED displays in the viewfinder, like Nikon does, but they don't and I don't think they could with todays technology and still maintain the RF as we know it. Maybe the M9 or 10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted November 21, 2007 Share #58 Posted November 21, 2007 Well that would be fine if the M8 had some other LCD screen or had more LED displays in the viewfinder, like Nikon does, but they don't and I don't think they could with todays technology and still maintain the RF as we know it.Maybe the M9 or 10. Actually the fix that Sean proposed was perfectly workable with the current M8. I'm sure with the M9 if they make it part of the design brief they could work out a very simple and M like way of doing it superior to Sean's proposed workaround but implementing Sean's proposed functions now would have been a boon to many M8 photographers and had no impact on those who don't care. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 21, 2007 Share #59 Posted November 21, 2007 Actually the fix that Sean proposed was perfectly workable with the current M8. But even that required using the LCD. The ideal solution is to be able to change these setting without removing the camera from the eye, and for that the viewfinder LCD may need to be revised to provide the required visual feedback as settings were changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted November 21, 2007 Share #60 Posted November 21, 2007 But even that required using the LCD. The ideal solution is to be able to change these setting without removing the camera from the eye, and for that the viewfinder LCD may need to be revised to provide the required visual feedback as settings were changed. Lets not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you are in AE mode and have the camera to your eye and you discover your shutter speed is to slow to make a steady shot. 2 clicks to the ISO you will see the shutter speed in the viewfinder respond to your selection. Same with EV, need a stop or 2 more and don't want to change aperture -you'll see the shutter speed move from 250 to 60 when you click the EV up 2 stops. No need to look at the LCD. I'd prefer if the LCD did not come on. Just need an easy way to zero out to your global preferences so you don't get lost. Of course this is all falling on deaf ears anyway... so no point in debating it. The closest you can get to this now is in manual mode which I'll be using most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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