Question on purchase of M8

[jon bell]

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Hi,

 

I am new to the site. We are possibly taking the plunge tomorrow on a new M8. It is painful from a money standpoint for us. my question is would the serial number be of importance to you if you were purchasing new tomorrow. i read the other post on this site regarding serial numbers. this is a new camera from a reputable dealer yet they are extending the old pricing to us. i thought that could mean a camera that might have been sitting in stock for awhile.

 

if it is an original run (ser #310xxxx) would that discourage you. thank you ahead of time for any insights you have.

 

jon

[Shootist]

IF I was going to purchase a M8 tomorrow, and did not already own 1, the serial number might influence me. If it was a very low serial number, somewhere in the 3102-3-4XXX my question would be "IS THIS A NEW UNIT" or somehow reconditioned even though it is being sold as new and comes with a FULL Leica 2 year waranty. Otherwise if the number was higher then that I wouldn't care.

Now that I own 1, actually 2, I wouldn't even think to look at the serial number, IF it was NEW, IE NOT marked as Reconditioned or Demo, and came with the 2 year Leica warranty.

It seems that you either get a GOOD unit or a bad unit. I have had 3 over the last 10 months, first one I got had some cosmetic flaws and something under the sensor that looked like brass spot and was replaced by Leica NJ. But it functioned fine, and I have not had any real problems with any of them.

One of them is now in NJ because of a flare/glare in the rangefinder patch when pointing it a bright light that is above the camera. But even with that flaw the camera had never failed to work, it was just hard focusing it at the times it was pointed at a bright light.

What is surprising is some seem to get 2, 3 or even 4 units that don't measure up. I wonder if it is the camera or user faults.

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[farnz]

Jon,

 

Welcome to the forum! I hope that you find as much useful information and informed opinion here as I have.

 

I'd entirely support what Ed says and I'd suggest you check what version of firmware is in the camera. If it's below version 1.09 then I'd start to be suspicious that the camera's been sitting on the shelf for awhile (although this may not mean anything bad). The very first M8s were recalled but I can't help with the serial number range - perhaps others can?

 

You can easily check the firmware version by turning the M8 on, pressing the menu button and pressing the up arrow in the scroll wheel once.

 

Hope you enjoy your new gem!

 

Pete.

[johnbuckley]

Jon - if this is a reputable dealer, as you say, express your concern and ask, when did you receive this M8? If it was after December 1, 2007, I believe, it came with the electronic problem those of us who bought last November had to have taken care of with a trip to the Solms hospital. Cheers, JB

[gtmerideth]

What day is this?

[johnbuckley]

Sorry, December 1, 2006.

[barjohn]

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Sadly, I have seen Leica do little to improve the camera that was not for Leica's benefit. Look at each one:

 

What Leica has done:

1. Free IR filters (2) any other solution would have been far more costly or sales would have died

2. Replaced circuit board from first batch - no other solution or stop selling

3. Replaced bad transistor or IC chip, cameras were dying left and right so no choice

4. First firmware update - needed to support the changed board

5. Second firmware update - needed to support WATE lens and other Leica wide angle lenses

6. Third firmware update - house keeping clean up added support for revised circuit board, no visible customer benefit

7. Fourth firmware update - needed to support new lens line, no significant customer complaints addressed

 

Status on Customer issues:

1. Erratic scroll wheel behavior - improved but not fixed

2. JPG quality - not addressed or fixed

3. Showing prior image on preview instead of current shot - not fixed

4. Green blob in some conditions- not fixed

5. Erratic AWB - not fixed (changes under same conditions)

6. Better AWB (closer to conditions) - not fixed

7. Mysterious lock-up requiring battery removal and hope that re-insertion brings camera back to life - not fixed

8. Mystery lock-up when sensor cleaning is selected - not fixed

9. Improved noise reduction for ISO above 640 - not visibly addressed

10. Occasional SDS still occurring - not acknowledged or addressed

11. Mysterious shutter blade failures - not acknowledged or addressed

12. Option to get true 14 or 16 bits images promised in sales literature - not acknowledged or addressed

13. Power switch that fails to operate properly - not addressed

 

Requested improvements:

1. Menu for lens selection - no, might impact 6 bit coding or sales

2. Estimated aperture (same software & sensor used for flash) added to EXIF - ignored

3. Reduced steps for EV & ISO selection- denied customer doesn't need it or it would interfere with Leica selected usage of buttons and menus

4. Larger histogram - ignored

5. Reduced steps for WB selection - refused

6. Faster turn around on repairs -perhaps stationing some service personnel in NJ - still has to go to Germany

7. Better lens calibration from factory - new lenses still are found to front or back focus

8. Improved customer service in NJ - ignored

 

Do you see any pattern emerging? Leica only does what is in their best interest and if it peripherally benefits the customer, that is Ok but if it ONLY benefits the customer, forget it! It isn't that the camera is horrible though it does appear to be more unreliable than many other high end cameras if one takes the time to review other web sites and forums (not scientific, just my observation). It is the only range finder game in town and that gives them a certain amount of arrogance that they could not have if there was some competition. If you are buying today, you should expect that Leica may never address or fix any of the issues outlined above and service, if you need it, is hit and miss, mostly miss. Expect very long repair or service times and if you ship via Fedex or UPS it will be expensive (especially overseas).

 

When it works it is a wonderful camera with excellent files below ISO 640. For some shots and images you can get usable files to ISO 1250. Forget 2500. The lenses are excellent and it is too bad the camera isn't quite where the lenses are in terms of quality or reliability. I hope this helps you with your decision.

 

P.S. I would go for a high serial number preferably above 333xx

[JumpStart]

WOW

 

Quite a collection. Do you own the M8, or just hate Leica?

 

DBK

[barjohn]

WOW

 

Quite a collection. Do you own the M8, or just hate Leica?

 

DBK

 

I own the M8 and I don't hate Leica. I just think they need to get their act together an quit being so damn arrogant and live up to their hype. Between camera, Leica 28/2.8 Asph, Leica 50/2, Leica 90/2 and Leica/Minolta 40/2 , Leica grip, Thumbs Up Model 3, 1.25X eyepiece, numerous B&W plus Leica UV/IR filters, Leica SF-24, Leica Sling, and diffuser for SF-24 I have spent well over $10K and I think any customer that spends that kind of money on your products deserves better treatment. If everyone keeps quiet out of either fear that Leica won't like them or fear that they will be bashed here then Leica will not do anything to change. Clearly, I have put my money where my mouth is.

 

P.S. if you see anything that is untrue, point it out and I will edit and fix it.

[pascal_meheut]

1. Menu for lens selection - no, might impact 6 bit coding or sales

Your interpretation. Leica said the risk of error is too big and do not want to implement it because a simple error can ruin even your raw files.

 

2. Estimated aperture (same software & sensor used for flash) added to EXIF - ignored

Not ignored. Leica answered that the precision is not good enough so they prefer not to include the data.

 

3. Reduced steps for EV & ISO selection- denied customer doesn't need it or it would interfere with Leica selected usage of buttons and menus

Once again, Leica has been quite clear: there are a lot of functions which can be included in a digital camera. For the time being, they are sticking to the M philosophy and trying to keep the camera as simple as possible with just a few functions and concentrating on image quality.

If you want a lof of menus & options, buy another brand.

 

4. Larger histogram - ignored

5. Reduced steps for WB selection - refused

Same as 3.

 

6. Faster turn around on repairs -perhaps stationing some service personnel in NJ - still has to go to Germany

7. Better lens calibration from factory - new lenses still are found to front or back focus

8. Improved customer service in NJ - ignored

Real problem here but do not forget that Leica was very close to bankrupt less than 2 years ago and they are just starting to make money and hiring again.

BTW, I have read the same horrible stories about new lenses with problem and long turnaround for every brand.

 

Do you see any pattern emerging? Leica only does what is in their best interest and if it peripherally benefits the customer, that is Ok but if it ONLY benefits the customer, forget it!

Yes, it is called a commercial company.

 

It isn't that the camera is horrible though it does appear to be more unreliable than many other high end cameras if one takes the time to review other web sites and forums (not scientific, just my observation). It is the only range finder game in town and that gives them a certain amount of arrogance that they could not have if there was some competition.

 

I never found them arrogant when it comes to the M8. Quite the contrary indeed: They have always been willing to discuss with customers about the issues and to fix them.

And they fixed a lot of them because the M8 was on the market too soon, with some huge problems (including QA).

 

Also, the published a FAQ, several firmwares, gave interviews about their choices and the future discussed a lot with Guy Mancuso, Sean Reid and others about what the M8 users community wants

.

[Guest Walt]

Barjohn--

 

I think this is an accurate history and prognosis for the future of the M8, give or take a few details and opinions. It's dirty work, but someone had to put it together. As you say, the camera is a good one, usually, but like you I have no expectations at this point of Leica putting any effort into improving what could be improved through firmware changes. That would require a little good will and $25,000 for a software engineer to sit down for a month or two and write some code. The good will and expense are, apparently, still unmanagable after selling $60,000,000 in M8 bodies, forget the coded lenses.

 

It's a sort of what-you-see-is-what-you-get deal. I like it well enough to use it, but I cringe when someone asks me how I like and if I think they should buy one.

 

Walt

[barjohn]

Item 1. P L E A S E spare me. So is shooting with a lens cap on but they still provide them with the lenses.

Item 2. That's like saying you are better off with a watch that doesn't work than one that is either a little slow or fast. At least the one that is stopped is right twice a day! Personally, I'll take the one that is a little off.

Item 3. You mean simple like with IR filter or without IR filter and with lens coding and without lens coding..that kind of simple?

Item 4....

Item 5. They made a healthy profit last year and this year thanks to the M8 so how about rewarding those of us that made it possible with our hard earned $?

Item 6. There are plenty of commercial companies that treat their customers better. That is no excuse.

Last item. Yes they discussed with Guy and Sean but they didn't deliver what either of them were led to believe would happen like frequent updates to firmware, improved menus, etc.

[barjohn]

Walt,

 

Those are my points exactly. I have tried in the past to make some of these posts without the lists and I get what needs fixing, everything is perfect, never had a problem, etc. So I figured I should give a prospective buyer an honest answer. He or she can then make a purchase decision based on what is known and his or her ability or willingness to take risks with this kind of expenditure. If they go ahead and if, or should I say when, they have a problem they will know what to expect. Buying a second body is not a viable solution for everyone. I find that solution completely irrational. It's as if I decided to buy this exotic car and drive across country and I break down in the middle of no where and the car has to be picked up and air-shipped to germany to be fixed so my solution is to quickly buy a second one so I can tow the first one around when I get it back in case the new one breaks. The idea of getting a more reliable car never seems to enter their mind.

[pascal_meheut]

Item 5. They made a healthy profit last year and this year thanks to the M8 so how about rewarding those of us that made it possible with our hard earned $?

 

You live in a strange world. A company selling you a product and making a margin out of it is not your daddy and has not to "reward" you: It is not like you graduated from high school.

 

And they do not care if your $$ were hard earned or just inherited.

[luigi bertolotti]

Hi,

 

I am new to the site. We are possibly taking the plunge tomorrow on a new M8. It is painful from a money standpoint for us. my question is would the serial number be of importance to you if you were purchasing new tomorrow. i read the other post on this site regarding serial numbers. this is a new camera from a reputable dealer yet they are extending the old pricing to us. i thought that could mean a camera that might have been sitting in stock for awhile.

 

if it is an original run (ser #310xxxx) would that discourage you. thank you ahead of time for any insights you have.

 

jon

 

Hey jon... do not worry about how much discussions heat up starting from your thread... it's rather normal in our forum ... constructive criticism abounds, so as strong defense of Leica reputation, many of them derived by the fact that many people (like me) has used and loved Leica gear for years and years...

Coming back to your question: do not worry too much about the s/n, but CHECK THE FIRMWARE and establish clear relationship with the dealer (YOU are becoming an important customer for him); I think that if you are NEW to digital photo with a serious camera (that was my situation) it's very propable you'll be a lot happy using M8... many of the above quoted issues have been experienced by me as absolutely minor problems in front of the satisfaction to see that a Digital camera allows me to work as I used to do (in 25 years of Leica M4 usage...) and with all the advantages of the digital process.

Buy it, learn to use, understand WB ( ) , learn a right workflow, and enjoy !!

[stunsworth]

Jon, ignore much of the stuff above. That always happens when someone asks about buying an M8.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the serial number. If I had a choice I'd go for the higher serial number, but it wouldn't be something that would be top of my priority list.

[Tom_W]

Having owned the camera for about 1 month I was going to write a quick list of what I would like to see in the form of firmware improvements but John has nailed the big two...

 

1) Increased ISO steps and the reason is...

 

I use the camera in conjunction with a Canon 1Ds2 for wildlife photography. The leica is fitted with the moderate wild angle, the canon a 600mm. The canon stays on 250 as this is the optimal balance of iso/noise, it also is used to spot meter. I would like to match the ISO's so I don't have to do the 'maths' with the leica set to manual.

 

2) Automatic EV bracketing

 

I like EV offset feature. That said for landscape (mainly wilderness) I would like an addition menu item under that which allows me to set auto bracketing to 3 or 5 shots ( obviously varying the shutter) at the step interval set in the EV offset - it would be good if the camera did it automatically i.e no addition shutter press required to cycle through the 3 or 5 shot sequence. The order of exposure doesn't matter. This would allow be to use HDR without having to touch the camera - hence no unintentional movement of the camera on the tripod and making the most of those wonderful lenses.

 

 

Cheers

 

T

[jaapv]

Having owned the camera for about 1 month I was going to write a quick list of what I would like to see in the form of firmware improvements but John has nailed the big two...

 

1) Increased ISO steps and the reason is...

 

I use the camera in conjunction with a Canon 1Ds2 for wildlife photography. The leica is fitted with the moderate wild angle, the canon a 600mm. The canon stays on 250 as this is the optimal balance of iso/noise, it also is used to spot meter. I would like to match the ISO's so I don't have to do the 'maths' with the leica set to manual.

 

2) Automatic EV bracketing

 

I like EV offset feature. That said for landscape (mainly wilderness) I would like an addition menu item under that which allows me to set auto bracketing to 3 or 5 shots ( obviously varying the shutter) at the step interval set in the EV offset - it would be good if the camera did it automatically i.e no addition shutter press required to cycle through the 3 or 5 shot sequence. The order of exposure doesn't matter. This would allow be to use HDR without having to touch the camera - hence no unintentional movement of the camera on the tripod and making the most of those wonderful lenses.

 

 

Cheers

 

T

Finer ISO steps - I think that is something very few would wish for. Don't forget that the ISO steps on the M8 are based one some theoretical algorithm and that the real ISO speeds are 200-400-800 etc when compared to film. I don't know how the Canon numbers compare. It is certainly not a matter of setting the numbers to the same value when crossing systems.

 

Automatic EV bracketing - that was discussed before. Consensus was that is was not a feature that fitted into the M philosophy.

[jaapv]

Sadly, I have seen Leica do little to improve the camera that was not for Leica's benefit. Look at each one:

 

[......]

 

Do you see any pattern emerging? Leica only does what is in their best interest and if it peripherally benefits the customer, that is Ok but if it ONLY benefits the customer, forget it! It isn't that the camera is horrible though it does appear to be more unreliable than many other high end cameras if one takes the time to review other web sites and forums (not scientific, just my observation). It is the only range finder game in town and that gives them a certain amount of arrogance that they could not have if there was some competition. If you are buying today, you should expect that Leica may never address or fix any of the issues outlined above and service, if you need it, is hit and miss, mostly miss. Expect very long repair or service times and if you ship via Fedex or UPS it will be expensive (especially overseas).

 

When it works it is a wonderful camera with excellent files below ISO 640. For some shots and images you can get usable files to ISO 1250. Forget 2500. The lenses are excellent and it is too bad the camera isn't quite where the lenses are in terms of quality or reliability. I hope this helps you with your decision.

 

P.S. I would go for a high serial number preferably above 333xx

 

Pascal gave you the long answer, I'll give you the short:

Leica is a company, not a democracy. They are responsible to their shareholders and employees for the continuity of their company.

For the last one hundred years they have been doing that by sticking mulishy to their philosophy, and with succes. Despite dire difficuties they are the only surviving independent company in their niche. So yes- they will be pigheaded when confronted with innovation they consider gimmicky - and they should be applauded for it.

Having said that I know of no other camera maker that is so open and customer-oriented as Leica. The reaction to the problems on the introduction of the M8 have been exemplary and one has only got to call the company to get a courteous answer on anything - and not by some idiotic helpdesk - but by the person responsible. I've never tried, but I am fairly certain that it is not too difficult for a Leica customer to get hold of Mr. Kaufmann or Mr Lee himself if he had a cogent reason.. Nowhere else.......

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Venkman]

My totally subjective and by no way backed up gut feeling is that the earlier batches are more stable working IF they work at all.

 

As I said - totally subjective and probably based on the fact that I have one of them.