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Question on purchase of M8


jon bell

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to answer your question-i have one of the first 1500 units and haven't even had my sensor board upgraded per the recall-it is an excellent camera. it is not a dslr and alot of slr users are upset that it doesn't have all the bells and whistles of an slr. I for one am pleases that they are keeping it simple but I come from a rangefinder background and I prefer manual controls at a minimum. There are whiners and folks with buyers remorse here as you will find-don't let them put you off. If you are into manual photography-rangefinder specifically and are interested in making the switch to digital I think you will be more than pleased with the m8. If you just want a really small dslr you may want to look elsewhere. Do some research, the naysayers and whiners are the same people over and over again and they do make alot of noise. Overwhelmingly the people who came from a rangefinder photography background are thrilled with this camera and that says it all. The image quality is more than I ever hoped for. Welcome to the fray....Brad

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It makes me wonder every time I read barjohn posts about outstanding issues is, on what pretense he bought the camera?. What's more is given his background, if he feels so strongly about this why he has not taken issue directly with Leica. While some of his points are valid , some perhaps were users desires after the camera was launched and other issues are being worked on as we speak, I have never heard him complain about being unable to use the camera.

 

We can all moan and groan, rarely in life is something 100% as advertised, there is always a shortcoming somewhere in the package, but it's interesting to note John still uses his M8 AFAIK, it can't be all that bad eh!?.

 

Jpeg's are a little crappy, but I always shoot raw anyway, not such an issue for me it'll be fixed sometime I'm sure.

 

AWB, never use it never did in any other camera brand, I always adjust in post

 

Occasional lock up's, show me any electronic piece of equipment that does not require a reboot every now and then, PDA's, Mobiles, PC's

 

Other than that I really have no issues with the camera it's self, I love it's simplicity and the only thing standing in the way after setting aperture and shutter speed is my ability as a photographer to make the shot. I'm gone past auto this, parameter that, spot meter here. It's a photographers tool, it requires a certain ability to get the best out of it. :)

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Well put Eoin and I agree.

My feeling is IF he does not like the camera then SELL IT AND MOVE ON.

It's hard to find a post by BarJohn that does not try to bring out all the flaws in the camera, AS HE see them.

I see the camera as the best thing since the M3.

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Well put Eoin and I agree.

My feeling is IF he does not like the camera then SELL IT AND MOVE ON.

It's hard to find a post by BarJohn that does not try to bring out all the flaws in the camera, AS HE see them.

I see the camera as the best thing since the M3.

 

i couldn't have said it any better

 

the young man from the age of "get over it"

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I agree with Barjohn, he is simply trying to put pressure on Leica to get the camera to operate as intended. By posting these comments here you get much more publicity with Leica's prospective customers than you would writing to Leica. That is a good thing about internet forums.

 

I don't think it helps to just say 'move on'. Recently we have just had a long thread about implementing improvements in the way the camera operates. To those that wanted those improvements one could also answer 'move on'. Barjohn just wants a different and in my mind more fundamental set of improvements.

 

Jeff

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I'll add my two cents.

the M8 is my first M camera, I too have purchased numerous lenses, accesories, harddrives for file backup and storage, software for workflow, post processing and printing.

I love it, great camera that gives me an occasional problem, sometimes it costs me a shot. But still a tool that gives me real visceral experience.

 

Barjohn's comments are well grounded in fact, but the OP didn't ask for a list of problems or a timeline of issues and Leica responses.

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The only time my M8 shows me the previous image on the review screen is when it hasn't had enough time to process the most recent shot.

 

Some of Barjohn's points are valid, just please don't take the camera away from me, because it's my favorite in 45 years of taking pictures!

 

Leica has done a great job with this camera for a small company with no digital experience before the DMR, and dependent on other suppliers for digital in a way they never were for film. Far from perfect, but trying mightily to improve.

 

It's not the valid points from complainers that irritate me, it's the entitlement. If you are entitled to a perfect camera, it is unfortunate that it doesn't exist. I feel pretty lucky I can afford an M8, and it's as great as it is.

 

Don't be insulted if it's not perfect. It's nothing personal.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

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If you read my post carefully, you will see that I said the camera takes excellent pictures below ISO 640. This doesn't change my desire to see it improved above 640 as I tend to shoot most often at parties, at bars or other social gatherings. I have the flash but prefer not to use it and would rather get more natural images. This means better low light capability. Yes, I know you can underexpose and push in post and I too always shoot in DNG and I can adjust WB in post but it is not uncommon after you take someone's picture for them to want to see it in the preview screen. I don't like showing a dark underexposed image with the color balance way off. People's reaction is that is a horrible picture for such an expensive camera. I want the option to get the full 14 bits of data in the file before compression because the camera tends to blow highlights. I think this is due to the compression scheme and the few steps available on the high end. All of the bits are reserved for the shadow areas. In evenly lit scenes this is no problem but in hard lit scenes with strong highlights this is a problem. Yes, you can underexpose all of the time and deal with in post but you are giving up something you should have the option to keep. There is no free lunch.

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I agree with Barjohn, he is simply trying to put pressure on Leica to get the camera to operate as intended. By posting these comments here you get much more publicity with Leica's prospective customers than you would writing to Leica. That is a good thing about internet forums.

 

I don't think it helps to just say 'move on'. Recently we have just had a long thread about implementing improvements in the way the camera operates. To those that wanted those improvements one could also answer 'move on'. Barjohn just wants a different and in my mind more fundamental set of improvements.

 

Jeff

 

1. Erratic scroll wheel behavior - improved but not fixed

2. JPG quality - not addressed or fixed

3. Showing prior image on preview instead of current shot - not fixed

4. Green blob in some conditions- not fixed

5. Erratic AWB - not fixed (changes under same conditions)

6. Better AWB (closer to conditions) - not fixed

7. Mysterious lock-up requiring battery removal and hope that re-insertion brings camera back to life - not fixed

8. Mystery lock-up when sensor cleaning is selected - not fixed

9. Improved noise reduction for ISO above 640 - not visibly addressed

10. Occasional SDS still occurring - not acknowledged or addressed

11. Mysterious shutter blade failures - not acknowledged or addressed

12. Option to get true 14 or 16 bits images promised in sales literature - not acknowledged or addressed

13. Power switch that fails to operate properly - not addressed

 

Requested improvements:

1. Menu for lens selection - no, might impact 6 bit coding or sales

2. Estimated aperture (same software & sensor used for flash) added to EXIF - ignored

3. Reduced steps for EV & ISO selection- denied customer doesn't need it or it would interfere with Leica selected usage of buttons and menus

4. Larger histogram - ignored

5. Reduced steps for WB selection - refused

6. Faster turn around on repairs -perhaps stationing some service personnel in NJ - still has to go to Germany

7. Better lens calibration from factory - new lenses still are found to front or back focus

8. Improved customer service in NJ - ignored

 

 

Jeff, of his 21 points only points 1,3 and 5 are valid ones regarding camera performance.

I don't think that warrants this kind of histrionics.

 

 

2. is untrue, unless one counts point 5 which is identical to it.

4 blobs have not been seen since the camera upgrade in January - if he means the green band it has not been reported for months - it appears to have been a limited number of cameras that suffered

5. is valid, but irrelevant to DNG shooters and there is a workaround.

6. apart from point 5 WB is as good as any digital camera except for Tummydoc's opinion

7. Resetting if needed is common to all electronic appliances, including computers, cameras ,motorcars, etc.I do not like it either but it is seemingly unavoidable...

8 See 7.

9. Is this even possible with this technology?

10 Not since a considerable number of months and never on newer cameras and T2 updated ones

11. ??? I recall one report here.

12 Not even proven this would be an improvement

13 Incidental problem which Leica fixes under guarantee

 

All the next points are wishes, opinions not universally shared and not specifically camera- related which have nothing to do with the proper functioning of the camera, except for the lens calibration which is done under guarantee.

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Thank you to all who posted.

 

i will be making the big decision today. i really dont see how i cant buy this camera even though finances are tight. By the way i am not the photographer. My wife is. She calls me her geek and i call me her sherpa. :)

 

I have watched her Canon gear be used less and less over the past couple of years. It is just too bulky for her, and i am hoping that this might revitlize her picture taking. She has been doing a lot of toy camera stuff over this period. This would be her first rangefinder. She has been shooting for almost 40 years.

 

 

Thank you again. All insights and encouragement is greatly appreciated.

 

jon

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Hi,

 

I am new to the site. We are possibly taking the plunge tomorrow on a new M8. It is painful from a money standpoint for us. my question is would the serial number be of importance to you if you were purchasing new tomorrow. i read the other post on this site regarding serial numbers. this is a new camera from a reputable dealer yet they are extending the old pricing to us. i thought that could mean a camera that might have been sitting in stock for awhile.

 

if it is an original run (ser #310xxxx) would that discourage you. thank you ahead of time for any insights you have.

 

jon

Jon, as you can see, this thread - like so many others - has developed into a thread where some people - probably not all Leica owners - attack Leica (camera and/or company), whereas others express satisfaction with their camera and lenses.

 

I belong to the latter group. I have had a M 8 with serial no 31014xx (the first batch) since early december 2006 and never had any problem with the camera whatsoever. I have used Leica rangefinders and SLR's for 45-50 years and have always been impressed with the quality. There is absolutely no reason why you should not buy a M8, and I cannot see why you should waste time to study the serial number, unless you are interested in a special number (as some numerologists are).

 

My only problem with the M8 has been that I have had to invest in a large number (until now: 9) of the newest generation of lenses, since the camera delivers such good results that older lenses do not deliver results on par with what this camera is able to produce. So be warned: buying the body is only a minor expense, compared to the expense you will run into when buying all the wonderful lenses, Leica produces for the M8.

 

Good Luck Jon, you won't regret it.

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Yes Jaap you make sense - I know he is over stating the case. But he missed one out. Venetian blinds. I get that quite a lot because I do use instant review with histogram. The VB does annoy me, because I then have to go back into play and info.

 

I never shoot jpg or use AWB so those dont worry me personally. The scroll wheel, well it does not jump all the time so I can live with it.

 

If they prevented the Venetian blinds and fixed the scroll wheel jumpiness I would be happy. But they have had a lot of new FWs in the last year and appear to have made no progress on these 2 issues, but I hope they will.

 

Jeff

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Yes Jaap you make sense - I know he is over stating the case. But he missed one out. Venetian blinds. I get that quite a lot because I do use instant review with histogram. The VB does annoy me, because I then have to go back into play and info.

 

I never shoot jpg or use AWB so those dont worry me personally. The scroll wheel, well it does not jump all the time so I can live with it.

 

If they prevented the Venetian blinds and fixed the scroll wheel jumpiness I would be happy. But they have had a lot of new FWs in the last year and appear to have made no progress on these 2 issues, but I hope they will.

 

Jeff

 

Does it still do that under the newest firmware? In my case the jumpiness has disappeared nearly completely. About the venetian blinds I would not know- I don't like instant review, but I thought that was better as well.

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Ok, I’m new and therefore I’m not jaded yet. I just received my new M8 (s/n 3330…) and within 24-hours it locked up tighter than a cats meow. Meaning, the display locked on a photo and no switch action would cancel or clear it. I had to remove the battery and reinsert. My new lens arrived with a misaligned hood mount so the lens looks like crap when mounted. I hope it's something I can adjust on my own but if not, it's off to never-never land. So far, I have upgraded from 1.108 > 1.110 but that's about it and I have my fingers crossed with regard to the lock-up issue but who the heck knows? Leica isn’t any better than most any other camera although it does have its calling. I do love the camera for what it is, although I cringe to think of the long turnaround when it requires repair. In short, I’ve had an issue with both the camera and the lens right out of the box so for 9k, I’m not all that impressed nor do I feel the higher serial number offers any tangible benefit.

Regards,:rolleyes:

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The one I took delivery of on November 1 has a 311 serial number. It came with 1.09 firmware. I believe the dealer got it in a shipment to him in the summer.

 

As side from a flash misfire on the weekend, which I think someone described how to do that - in other words Operator Error, I have not had a complaint.

 

I do always shoot RAW, and I do fine tune the WB in lightroom later. But I do that with just about every DSLR we have ever had (we produce instructional guides on DSLR's and have owned every DSLR since the D100 - so we know what that is).

 

In my opinion, the M8 was shipped with some issues, but the repair, and upgrades that Leica have provided seem to be doing fine.

 

DBK

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Guest Bernd Banken
Thank you to all who posted.

 

i will be making the big decision today. i really dont see how i cant buy this camera even though finances are tight. By the way i am not the photographer. My wife is. She calls me her geek and i call me her sherpa. :)

 

I have watched her Canon gear be used less and less over the past couple of years. It is just too bulky for her, and i am hoping that this might revitlize her picture taking. She has been doing a lot of toy camera stuff over this period. This would be her first rangefinder. She has been shooting for almost 40 years.

 

 

Thank you again. All insights and encouragement is greatly appreciated.

 

jon

 

 

Jon,

 

the M8 as the first RF camera for your wife would be a too expensive testdrive.

My hint and the way I did to come closer to the M8 (which I didn't buy as the result of above issues):

Buy a second hand M6, M6 TTL or more comfortable a M7 with AE.

 

You can get three different viewfinder magnification as is 0,58 (nearly as M8), 0,72 (the average) and 0,82 (more tele friendly).

 

Take the 0,72 as the most common version and start shooting with a cheap 50mm f2.

 

When your wife can accept the different method of focussing and the framed window for composing that would be fine and you can go on.

If this style of photography is not so comfortable as the use of SLRs this experiment is not so costly.

Give you two, three weeks and buy the Ilford XP2 or Kodak BW400 black&white film or colorfilm, developped as a normal colorfilm plus a Foto-CD for your computer.

 

After this time your wife knows whether the M8 would be fine for her.

Be careful with hints from persons here which have 10, 20 or more years of experience with RF cameras, they are not comparable to your wife;)

 

As for the technical issues with the M8 I have an opinion which I don't tell in a leica forum:cool:

 

Regards

Bernd

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