CCD vs CMOS

[Anthony MD]

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So much discussion on this subject with more supporters of CCD than CMOS.

CCD supposedly has a more filmic appeal than CMOS.  Is all this attributed to the sensors only or do other factors determine final image rendering…?

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[irenedp]

Editing ultimately does, and allegedly CCD sensors are noisier. In terms of rendering before edits I find more difference between the M9 and the 10r -which is often described as the closest one- than between the S2 and S3, which are really very close. So part of it is the base tuning of the sensor, white balance, etc

Edited November 8, 2023 by irenedp

[jankap]

The new announced Sony A9 III has a global shutter, full frame 24 mpx . So far, to different technologies.

[hepcat]

I've had four cameras with CCD sensors over the years, an Olympus E1, Leica M8 and M9, and both an Leaf Aptus 6 and Leaf Credo 40 digital backs for Phase One/Mamiya 645 cameras.   I've had Olympus E3 and E5, Fuji X-T1, Nikon Df, and now Lumix S1, S5 and an M10-P.  There is some quality of the CCD sensors that makes the color rendering amazing straight out of the camera.  You can achieve the same look with CMOS sensors in post, but the RAW files just have a different native look.  I have a difficult time describing what those differences are, but they are there.  They are really apparent in mixed-source lighting.  The CCD sensors seem to handle mixed-lighting sources more elegantly.   However, I will say that my M10-P gives a look very similar to the output of the M9-P which probably gave me OOC files I've liked best of all of the digital cameras I've owned, with the Leaf Credo 40 coming in a close second.  

All that said, remember that ALL of the opinions regarding CCD vs. CMOS are just that, subjective opinions.

This is one of my favorite portraits from the Leaf Credo 40 CCD. 

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[Anthony MD]

29 minutes ago, hepcat said:

I've had four cameras with CCD sensors over the years, an Olympus E1, Leica M8 and M9, and both an Leaf Aptus 6 and Leaf Credo 40 digital backs for Phase One/Mamiya 645 cameras.   I've had Olympus E3 and E5, Fuji X-T1, Nikon Df, and now Lumix S1, S5 and an M10-P.  There is some quality of the CCD sensors that makes the color rendering amazing straight out of the camera.  You can achieve the same look with CMOS sensors in post, but the RAW files just have a different native look.  I have a difficult time describing what those differences are, but they are there.  They are really apparent in mixed-source lighting.  The CCD sensors seem to handle mixed-lighting sources more elegantly.   However, I will say that my M10-P gives a look very similar to the output of the M9-P which probably gave me OOC files I've liked best of all of the digital cameras I've owned, with the Leaf Credo 40 coming in a close second.  

All that said, remember that ALL of the opinions regarding CCD vs. CMOS are just that, subjective opinions.

This is one of my favorite portraits from the Leaf Credo 40 CCD. 

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Beautiful saturated colors…!

[dpitt]

Of course there is more to it. My Nikon D70 was CCD and when I switched to Leica the output was very different too. IMO, it also has to do with the camera generation and even more with the brand's color science. All Leica's are tweaked to achieve a certain goal, and variations within the same brand are kept to the absolute minimum. I experimented with Canon, Fuji and Olympus CCD and CMOS of roughly the same generation.

With all of them I almost exclusively work in RAW.

My M8 and M9 are both CCD and look very similar. One could say the sensor from the M8 is a crop from the M9 sensor with more IR sensitivity. At base ISO and with a UV/IR filter there is not much difference. Even my Leica X2 (CMOS 16MP APS-C) produces very similar results. I have no CMOS M body yet.

My SL(601) CMOS 24 MP has a completely different look, and the TL2(CMOS 24 MP APS-C) goes even more in that direction. In PP I treat them in a different way so that the results look similar, the files from the M9 look crispier but they are also more 'brittle' in PP. But still they all are Leica first and then different. Differences between brands are larger IMO than this evolution in Leica style.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by dpitt

[ianman]

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On 11/8/2023 at 1:11 PM, Anthony MD said:

do other factors determine final image rendering…?

Even before you get to software, the lens is another piece of hardware which greatly affects the image. I found early on that I much prefer the images output by the M9 if I underexpose (I don’t mean exposing for the highlights). But as has been mentioned, it’s all a question of taste and opinion.

[M Street Photographer]

This is an old discussion that started with the switch from CCD to C mos sensors. And yes, it is true that CCD sensors have a different image and color.
But there is another truth: The color scheme of the M9 with the old sensor is different than that of the successor sensors that were then used because of the sensor error. After replacing the M9's sensor for free, I noticed the difference in the unprocessed RAWs. After intensive consultation with the service in Wetzlar (I had sent in RAWs with the old and replaced sensor), the customer service representative admitted this change and said that it was also related to the firmware of the new CCD sensor.

So please don't create false illusions, especially not between the two CCD sensors of the M9.

Edited November 9, 2023 by M Street Photographer

[a.noctilux]

I agree that "firmware/software" processing can do a lot in color response and maybe more than we think.

 

I kept for myself for a while, as this case is not logical but true (for me, in my own observations):

When my Monochrom (CCD) came from sensor replacement, I didn't believe that the gray/b&w "color" response was not the same

as before, so weird that I live for a while with this in mind, then forgot about it.

Maybe just psychologic illusion.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by a.noctilux

[M Street Photographer]

I think it's not an illusion. The only question is how big the difference is and whether you notice it when looking at a single photo.
When the color CCD sensor was replaced, the difference to the first original one in the colors purple/red/blue was so noticeable to me that I sold the M9. Because my reason for buying it was the colors and the Leica look. Now, after years, I found the legitimate successor for myself, the M10 R, and have now returned - back to the roots.

My first Leica entry was the Digilux 2 and then the upgrade, the Digilux 3. For emotional reasons I couldn't part with the old lady and I still have it today. And to my satisfaction, the Digilux 3 shows me my beloved CCD colors and clearly the Leica look.

2 pic's with Digilux 3

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Edited November 10, 2023 by M Street Photographer

[M Street Photographer]

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[ianman]

7 hours ago, M Street Photographer said:

This is an old discussion that started with the switch from CCD to C mos sensors. And yes, it is true that CCD sensors have a different image and color.
But there is another truth: The color scheme of the M9 with the old sensor is different than that of the successor sensors that were then used because of the sensor error. After replacing the M9's sensor for free, I noticed the difference in the unprocessed RAWs. After intensive consultation with the service in Wetzlar (I had sent in RAWs with the old and replaced sensor), the customer service representative admitted this change and said that it was also related to the firmware of the new CCD sensor.

So please don't create false illusions, especially not between the two CCD sensors of the M9.

I remember thinking that there seemed to be a small difference and that the new sensor rendering was even better than the original. I never bothered to take it further than mentioning it here on the forum to see if anyone else had noticed a difference but I’m glad to see it was officially confirmed. However if intensive consultation was required it just goes to show that the difference is minute. From what I can remember nobody here other than myself noticed any difference.

[M Street Photographer]

After the M9 came back with a new sensor and I took the first test shots, I immediately saw that the colors were not what I was used to. Regardless of whether it is better or just different. But the difference was enough to separate me from the M9. And yes, you can shoot everything in PS / LR / C1, but I love the colors as they came out of the camera.

[costa43]

With the Leica CCDs I find that the low dynamic range and megapixel count contribute most to their more filmic vibe. They take the edge off the ‘digital look’ that many dislike, vintage lenses on these bodies sing if that is the look you are after. All this makes a bigger difference to my eyes than the colour profiles. (Which I also find very pleasing as a starting point)

[irenedp]

I bought my M9 about 4 years ago and already with a changed sensor -a 015- so I have no previous experience of how the M9 colors looked like before. But I do shoot film occasionally and it is very similar to Ektar or Ektachrome. 

I have an M10r -bought also used when somebody was switching to an M11- and sincerely I do not see the similarities in the base files. Because I use both for work, matching colors is a need. I have learned to do it, but it requires work. The initial files are not close at all. Color temperature and tint are different to start with, but equalizing them needs further work than that  

I don’t see the same difference between the S2 and the S3. I also use a Phase One with a CMOS, and although the Phase files are warmer, it is easier to equate them with the S3 than to do the same with the M9 and the 10r 

Edited November 10, 2023 by irenedp

[Anthony MD]

12 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

I agree that "firmware/software" processing can do a lot in color response and maybe more than we think.

 

I kept for myself for a while, as this case is not logical but true (for me, in my own observations):

When my Monochrom (CCD) came from sensor replacement, I didn't believe that the gray/b&w "color" response was not the same

as before, so weird that I live for a while with this in mind, then forgot about it.

Maybe just psychologic illusion.

 

When the sensor was changed resulting in a new sensor (different) the gray/ b/w had to change also…!

[M Street Photographer]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb irenedp:

I bought my M9 about 4 years ago and already with a changed sensor -a 015- so I have no previous experience of how the M9 colors looked like before. But I do shoot film occasionally and it is very similar to Ektar or Ektachrome. 

I have an M10r -bought also used when somebody was switching to an M11- and sincerely I do not see the similarities in the base files. Because I use both for work, matching colors is a need. I have learned to do it, but it requires work. The initial files are not close at all. Color temperature and tint are different to start with, but equalizing them needs further work than that  

I don’t see the same difference between the S2 and the S3. I also use a Phase One with a CMOS, and although the Phase files are warmer, it is easier to equate them with the S3 than to do the same with the M9 and the 10r 

I didn't want to compare the color scheme with "the legitimate successor M10 R" for the M9, this is different.
But more in the emotion and that I really like the coloring of the M10R.
Color fidelity is certainly absolutely important for professionals, but less so for me. What matters to me is that the coloring and rendering appeal to me in a special way, which is the case with the M9 and now the M10R.
I also mostly use old lenses because I like the imaging, especially with the M10 R. There are already deviations here due to the different manufacturers and years of construction.

[irenedp]

26 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said:

I didn't want to compare the color scheme with "the legitimate successor M10 R" for the M9, this is different.
But more in the emotion and that I really like the coloring of the M10R.
Color fidelity is certainly absolutely important for professionals, but less so for me. What matters to me is that the coloring and rendering appeal to me in a special way, which is the case with the M9 and now the M10R.
I also mostly use old lenses because I like the imaging, especially with the M10 R. There are already deviations here due to the different manufacturers and years of construction.

I understand. I was more focused on the technical side. Leica files tend to have something and those from the M10r are beautiful. 

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[Anthony MD]

CCD=Compulsive Censor Diagnostics…!   

[Al Brown]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:11 PM, Anthony MD said:

So much discussion on this subject with more supporters of CCD than CMOS.

CCD supposedly has a more filmic appeal than CMOS.  Is all this attributed to the sensors only or do other factors determine final image rendering…?

One is Audi and the other is a BMW. Both have its uses.