Leica M11 or M12 with electronic only shutter

[algrove]

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On 4/19/2024 at 1:16 AM, Herman Zhang said:

No. The sound of the mechanical shutter tells me if I have the image taken, and this is escpecially important as I rarely look at the LCD screen. 

What if you had an M11D and it had no LCD screen. Yikes!!

[algrove]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:24 PM, wdahab said:

There are two things that would make me upgrade my M11, which I think is mostly ideal. Global shutter is one of them.

What's the second one?

[algrove]

On 11/8/2023 at 12:59 AM, Stevejack said:

I really think we're at the point where Leica needs to split their M series into EVF and OVF variants. 

There are too many users who don't want anything more than a rangefinder with mechanical shutter and as few electronic add-ons as possible, and a shooting experience which is as close to film as you can get with a digital sensor. Tactile and simple. 

Then make an EVF only Leica in the same form-factor as the M, using M lenses, and incorporating all of the tech advances as they can into that camera (hopefully global shutter!).

I truly believe that there are enough users for both to exist but trying to keep everyone happy with a single M model is impossible because there are clearly two distinct camps when it comes to digital M users. I'm sure a lot of enthusiasts would own and use both which is a win-win for Leica.

I for one would buy both.

[algrove]

On 11/8/2023 at 9:40 PM, Crem said:

I’m really curious to see how quickly Sony can scale up the megapixels of their global shutter sensors. For me 24 megapixels is perfect, but I find it difficult to believe Leica would go back to it. Assuming Leica waits for megapixels then I imagine it’s multiple years from now until we see it in a M or SL.

Glad to hear high ISO is good. Looking forward to hearing about dynamic range. I think today they claimed it’s good, but I haven’t seen any numbers. 

Leica already went back to 24MP with the SL2S.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, algrove said:

What if you had an M11D and it had no LCD screen. Yikes!!

Um, an M11-D would have no LCD by definition …

The whole metering options off the sensor idea with the M11 still seems odd to me.  It really only gives n advantage to me if you use the EVF, and you can see what’s being metered, move the spot around or see what’s being multi-zoned.  I know you can leave it centre-weighted, and convince yourself it’s not different or better than off the shutter, but that seems pointless to me.

Face it, leaving metering to the camera is always going to be an averaging game.  If you really want to get absolutely precise metering, you need to venture down the zone rabbit hole.  Necessary for Ansel Adams, but then he was using large format film.

I much prefer the basic averaged, but consistent metering off the shutter when using the OVF and the more detailed options with the EVF when using my M10-D, but then I tend not to use those either (save spot metering where I can chose the spot, and I’m in manual exposure anyway).  

I seem to be a luddite on this issue.  

[algrove]

12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Um, an M11-D would have no LCD by definition …

The whole metering options off the sensor idea with the M11 still seems odd to me.  It really only gives n advantage to me if you use the EVF, and you can see what’s being metered, move the spot around or see what’s being multi-zoned.  I know you can leave it centre-weighted, and convince yourself it’s not different or better than off the shutter, but that seems pointless to me.

Face it, leaving metering to the camera is always going to be an averaging game.  If you really want to get absolutely precise metering, you need to venture down the zone rabbit hole.  Necessary for Ansel Adams, but then he was using large format film.

I much prefer the basic averaged, but consistent metering off the shutter when using the OVF and the more detailed options with the EVF when using my M10-D, but then I tend not to use those either (save spot metering where I can chose the spot, and I’m in manual exposure anyway).  

I seem to be a luddite on this issue.  

Of course.

I did not follow with "and no way to see your results until you take the SD card out and process your images".

I would hope one can use a Viso2 for menu and exposure settings.

[wdahab]

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18 hours ago, algrove said:

What's the second one?

IBIS

[Crem]

16 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I seem to be a luddite on this issue.  

You aren't alone. I much prefer M10 metering off the shutter curtain when using the OVF. It's predictable and works well. It does require one to think a bit so I assume that's why Leica defaults the M11 to multi field mode. 

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, algrove said:

I would hope one can use a Viso2 for menu and exposure settings.

I can see the metering options through the Visoflex 020 on my M10-D, including moving the metering spot (it’s clunking, but works).  To be honest, the joystick on the SL and the touch screen on the X2D work better.  With an LCD-less camera, I really see little point in having anything but centre-weighted metering off the screen.

The M is fundamentally a minimalist camera, stripped to basics with manual focus and aperture settings - adding more reduces the appeal of the camera.

[Anbaric]

30 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The M is fundamentally a minimalist camera, stripped to basics with manual focus and aperture settings - adding more reduces the appeal of the camera.

Wait till you see where they're going with the M13.

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[algrove]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I can see the metering options through the Visoflex 020 on my M10-D, including moving the metering spot (it’s clunking, but works).  To be honest, the joystick on the SL and the touch screen on the X2D work better.  With an LCD-less camera, I really see little point in having anything but centre-weighted metering off the screen.

The M is fundamentally a minimalist camera, stripped to basics with manual focus and aperture settings - adding more reduces the appeal of the camera.

I might try one since I am use to using my M6's, but it could be nice having to just load the SD card into the computer instead of developing, drying, scanning to get to the same point.

[Stevejack]

After owning eight Leica M series cameras, I've finally narrowed down what I want from a Leica and unfortunately it's not yet made;

A screen-less M like the M10-D, but with an integrated EVF. 

I love the ergonomics of carrying the M10-D but I miss having an EVF for wide + vintage lenses to preview the flare / distortion and for precise framing. The Visoflex is bulky so having the EVF integrated would be a good solution for me, even if it means giving up the beautiful rangefinder. 

So really it's an "M" form-factor, M lenses, no rear LCD, and an integrated EVF. That would be the perfect daily carry for me. 

 

 

[algrove]

If one wants to try out an electronic shutter ONLy camera then the new Panasonic S9 is one example. Not for me especially without a hot shoe that could someday take an EVF.

[Kiwimac]

On 5/21/2024 at 5:39 PM, Stevejack said:

After owning eight Leica M series cameras, I've finally narrowed down what I want from a Leica and unfortunately it's not yet made;

A screen-less M like the M10-D, but with an integrated EVF. 

I love the ergonomics of carrying the M10-D but I miss having an EVF for wide + vintage lenses to preview the flare / distortion and for precise framing. The Visoflex is bulky so having the EVF integrated would be a good solution for me, even if it means giving up the beautiful rangefinder. 

So really it's an "M" form-factor, M lenses, no rear LCD, and an integrated EVF. That would be the perfect daily carry for me. 

 

 

That’s almost a FF X-Pro!

[algrove]

On 5/21/2024 at 1:39 AM, Stevejack said:

After owning eight Leica M series cameras, I've finally narrowed down what I want from a Leica and unfortunately it's not yet made;

A screen-less M like the M10-D, but with an integrated EVF. 

I love the ergonomics of carrying the M10-D but I miss having an EVF for wide + vintage lenses to preview the flare / distortion and for precise framing. The Visoflex is bulky so having the EVF integrated would be a good solution for me, even if it means giving up the beautiful rangefinder. 

So really it's an "M" form-factor, M lenses, no rear LCD, and an integrated EVF. That would be the perfect daily carry for me. 

I could add-- also for using new close focus M lenses.

 

 

[Stevejack]

17 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

That’s almost a FF X-Pro!

Yeah but the M form-factor is a big point, ISO dial etc is important. I had an X100f and it was great, but much prefer the Leica in use.  I love the current M, I even love the rangefinder, but I would go without the rangefinder if we get a very good EVF in the same body, if that option ever presents itself. 

6 hours ago, algrove said:

I could add-- also for using new close focus M lenses.

Yeah that's a plus for sure.    I think there's a big part of owning an M where we just have to say 'well that's not what an M is made for'.   Trying to squeeze too much out of the system is when the cameras get bloated and lose the entire point of owning them. I think my list of wants for an EVF only M is getting towards that point even for me, but assuming a hypothetical D-series M stayed otherwise identical and just replaced the rangefinder with an EVF it would be an awesome daily carry. 

[Kiwimac]

1 hour ago, Stevejack said:

Yeah but the M form-factor is a big point, ISO dial etc is important. I had an X100f and it was great, but much prefer the Leica in use.  I love the current M, I even love the rangefinder, but I would go without the rangefinder if we get a very good EVF in the same body, if that option ever presents itself. 

Yeah that's a plus for sure.    I think there's a big part of owning an M where we just have to say 'well that's not what an M is made for'.   Trying to squeeze too much out of the system is when the cameras get bloated and lose the entire point of owning them. I think my list of wants for an EVF only M is getting towards that point even for me, but assuming a hypothetical D-series M stayed otherwise identical and just replaced the rangefinder with an EVF it would be an awesome daily carry. 

The X-Pro has a very similar form factor. I had the original of the three iterations to date and almost went for the X-Pro 3. In the end I decided the M satisfied me more. 
 

However the X-Pro 4 is rumoured to be close to launch and will almost certainly deliver a lot of the things people are asking for, IBIS, hybrid OVF/EVF rangefinder style, metal body, manual dials etc and Fujinon glass is extremely good. 
 

If it eventuates, I think it’s going to steal those customers who’d really like an interchangeable lens Q!

[S Maclean]

My wish list for the M12 is to add an EVF, autofocus with face, eye, and heart rate detection (I hate to take a shot and realize I didn't capture the heart beat on diastole), HD video capability, and the ability to fit Canon, Nikon, and Hasselblad lenses. I would like it to change to medium format. Integrated sonar for low-light focusing would be a plus. IBIS to 15 stops, and an integrated monopod would also be great.

Lastly, if these requirements are met....I would absolutely love it if they changed the name to anything other than "M"

[3D-Kraft.com]

I recently bought the M8 for all it's imperfections and really like the "clonk-meep" shutter sound.

When I need something close to technical perfection in Photo and Video, I take my boring Sony A1...

So I think elements like the mechanical shutter and the opto-mechanical range finder belong to the Mxy like the letter "M", but it makes sense to have the option of an electronic shutter in case you want to shoot in silence.

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

I recently bought the M8 for all it's imperfections and really like the "clonk-meep" shutter sound.

When I need something close to technical perfection in Photo and Video, I take my boring Sony A1...

So I think elements like the mechanical shutter and the opto-mechanical range finder belong to the Mxy like the letter "M", but it makes sense to have the option of an electronic shutter in case you want to shoot in silence.

I find my M11 images to trump my A1 images in content and technical quality.