Leica M11 or M12 with electronic only shutter

[IkarusJohn]

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I’m agnostic.

My M-A has the horizontal rubberised cloth shutter, and goes to 1/1,000.  A lovely quiet “snick” when I take an image.

My Monochrom and M10-D have the vertical metal shutter, good to 1/4,000.  The Monochrom has the unpleasant click, grinding whirr as it cocks, whereas the M10-D has the nicest shutter sound of the lot.

The X2D has a leaf shutter, good to 1/2,000, which then switches to electronic first curtain up to 1/,4000, followed by a purely electronic shutter (which you have to select).  This has a number of consequences - once the electronic fist shutter kicks in, the out of focus “bokeh balls” get affected by the leaf shutter (not coma, just the effect of the shutter); with non-leaf shutter lenses, like the Noctilux or my Elmarit-R, IBIS works well, but you have to be vary careful of movement, especially across the frame due to the read-out rate.

I suspect a truly global shutter is a long way away, but an MEVF with a global shutter, IBIS, faster processor, internal storage and bigger battery, all wrapped in a traditional M body would be interesting.

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[raizans]

Sony A9III announced with global shutter. A long way away turns out to be today!

[fenykepesz]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

...whereas the M10-D has the nicest shutter sound of the lot.

i like that, IkarusJohn !

it's really true : there is this soft and still solid acoustic "thud-d" with the associated haptic double-shake.  nothing aggressive, just marking presence, very mellow indeed, and very reliable as feedback, confirming the shot.

Edited November 7, 2023 by fenykepesz

[DrM]

5 hours ago, raizans said:

Sony A9III announced with global shutter. A long way away turns out to be today!

Yes, great progress. Leica asked thus in the survey as well, so I guess it is on the table at least. 

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, raizans said:

Sony A9III announced with global shutter. A long way away turns out to be today!

SL3-S and M11-G 😎. But the dynamic range needs to be at least as good as the SL2-S. No information about the dynamic range on the A9 III yet.

[wdahab]

There are two things that would make me upgrade my M11, which I think is mostly ideal. Global shutter is one of them.

[williamj]

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8 hours ago, raizans said:

Sony A9III announced with global shutter. A long way away turns out to be today!

Excellent news. Of course, there will probably need to be some development of the sensor in future iterations.

The other thing is the default is a completely quiet shutter OR if Leica plays the game, they could give the user the haptics and the sound of the best film camera shutter to go with the global shutter through a choice in the menu.

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, raizans said:

Sony A9III announced with global shutter. A long way away turns out to be today!

The base ISO is ISO 250. The sensor's IQ (noise) is probably not that good (as expected with a global shutter). A stacked sensor is a better solution, in my book.

[agfa100]

I use my M lenses on a Sony a9 the 1st model and I love the silent shutter plus the 20 fps which I hardly ever use but it's their if needed. 

[Crem]

13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I suspect a truly global shutter is a long way away, but an MEVF with a global shutter, IBIS, faster processor, internal storage and bigger battery, all wrapped in a traditional M body would be interesting.

Sony launched their true global shutter sensor today in full frame format (Sony A9III). It's quite amazing. 24MP, base ISO 250, max shutter speed of 1/80,000 for single single shot mode. For bursts I think 1/16,000 is the max shutter speed. Since it's a global shutter the flash sync speed goes all the way up to the max shutter speed so no need for high speed sync flashes. My guess is we see it in a Leica in the next 2 - 3 years, but I have no inside info.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Crem

[bcaslis]

To be clear Sony announced the global shutter, camera available spring 2024. I have never seen a camera company do that before. As stated the base ISO is 250 and no info yet on dynamic range. It's good that they move the technology forward but I think the hype is way exceeding the reality we will see in 6 months.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

The base ISO is ISO 250. The sensor's IQ (noise) is probably not that good (as expected with a global shutter). A stacked sensor is a better solution, in my book.

Base ISO of 250 could have been a limitation of the technology as it stands today; however, it could be they did that to push the high ISO performance forward by over a stop. My thinking is that could be the exact noise penalty that this sensor has over the equivalent stacked sensor.

Also keep in mind there is a new feature that the 120 fps allows, which is in-camera RAW stacking for noise reduction. We'll have to see what the results of that are, but it could push ISO performance for non-moving or slow-moving subjects beyond that of current sensors.

[hdmesa]

For what it's worth, the Super 35 sensor in the Red Komodo has a global shutter, and they advertise it as not taking a hit to dynamic range:

Quote

CAPTURE EVERY MOVEMENT, BURST, AND FLASH WITHOUT SACRIFICING AN OUNCE OF DYNAMIC RANGE OR OVERALL IMAGE QUALITY

 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Base ISO of 250 could have been a limitation of the technology as it stands today; however, it could be they did that to push the high ISO performance forward by over a stop. My thinking is that could be the exact noise penalty that this sensor has over the equivalent stacked sensor.

Also keep in mind there is a new feature that the 120 fps allows, which is in-camera RAW stacking for noise reduction. We'll have to see what the results of that are, but it could push ISO performance for non-moving or slow-moving subjects beyond that of current sensors.

The full well capacity is lower with a global shutter. The penalty is likely more severe than with stacked sensors. However, we do not know until the camera is shipping.

There is no in-camera stacking. The Composite RAW Shooting requires merging in post using Sony's software. They should have done it in-camera. Merging in the post is cumbersome (same for handheld high-resolution mode). Global shutters are perfect for frame averaging.

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The full well capacity is lower with a global shutter. The penalty is likely more severe than with stacked sensors. However, we do not know until the camera is shipping.

There is no in-camera stacking. The Composite RAW Shooting requires merging in post using Sony's software. They should have done it in-camera. Merging in the post is cumbersome (same for handheld high-resolution mode). Global shutters are perfect for frame averaging.

Eww, yuck. I misheard/misread. Doing it in post might as well be not having the feature at all. Sony was probably taxed to the max just to get the global shutter to work, rewrite the firmware to do the basics around the new capabilities. That leaves a LOT on the table for computational photography to be added in firmware.

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, Crem said:

Sony launched their true global shutter sensor today in full frame format (Sony A9III). It's quite amazing. 24MP, base ISO 250, max shutter speed of 1/80,000 for single single shot mode. For bursts I think 1/16,000 is the max shutter speed. Since it's a global shutter the flash sync speed goes all the way up to the max shutter speed so no need for high speed sync flashes. My guess is we see it in a Leica in the next 2 - 3 years, but I have no inside info.

This will be very interesting.

[Stevejack]

I really think we're at the point where Leica needs to split their M series into EVF and OVF variants. 

There are too many users who don't want anything more than a rangefinder with mechanical shutter and as few electronic add-ons as possible, and a shooting experience which is as close to film as you can get with a digital sensor. Tactile and simple. 

Then make an EVF only Leica in the same form-factor as the M, using M lenses, and incorporating all of the tech advances as they can into that camera (hopefully global shutter!).

I truly believe that there are enough users for both to exist but trying to keep everyone happy with a single M model is impossible because there are clearly two distinct camps when it comes to digital M users. I'm sure a lot of enthusiasts would own and use both which is a win-win for Leica.

[Photoworks]

I just tested the a9III from Sony,  don't get me wrong, I am so over the Sony cameras stuff, so frustrating. 

But I have to say this is a game changer, and would think most future cameras will have this tech.

Finally, the viewfinder is really nice and does not degrade as all the other Sony cameras did. Something to think about the SL3

Global shutter or really all pixels read out at once, allows for flash at all speeds.

High ISO performance was really good Will see how the final product is.

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[Crem]

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I just tested the a9III from Sony,  don't get me wrong, I am so over the Sony cameras stuff, so frustrating. 

But I have to say this is a game changer, and would think most future cameras will have this tech.

Finally, the viewfinder is really nice and does not degrade as all the other Sony cameras did. Something to think about the SL3

Global shutter or really all pixels read out at once, allows for flash at all speeds.

High ISO performance was really good Will see how the final product is.

I’m really curious to see how quickly Sony can scale up the megapixels of their global shutter sensors. For me 24 megapixels is perfect, but I find it difficult to believe Leica would go back to it. Assuming Leica waits for megapixels then I imagine it’s multiple years from now until we see it in a M or SL.

Glad to hear high ISO is good. Looking forward to hearing about dynamic range. I think today they claimed it’s good, but I haven’t seen any numbers. 

[Herman Zhang]

No. The sound of the mechanical shutter tells me if I have the image taken, and this is escpecially important as I rarely look at the LCD screen.