Leica M11 White Balance and it's relationship to metering?

[petereprice]

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Hi all,

I've had the M11 for about three weeks or so, formerly using the M10-R, and wanted to run something past you all to see if you are running into the same issues.  I'm aware from reading some posts on here, that the M11 appears to have issues with accurate colors when using the Auto White Balance.  However I'm curious, do you notice the AWB more problematic when using the Multifield Metering mode, as opposed to Spot or Highlight Weighted?  

I have been using Highlight Weighted the last few weeks, however, when I tried using Multifield Metering today for an entire day, I noticed a serious shift in accurate colors from my images straight out of camera.  I don't think I saw as much of a swing in WB when using the Spot or Highlight Metering modes, but I could be just seeing things.  

Either way I feel like the colors aren't as accurate to me straight out of camera as the M10-R did.  

I love all the rest of the camera modifications and improvements but I'm a bit worried, about all this extra work I have to do in post.  I suppose I could dial in my WB manually and see if I can get some better results.  But sometimes I'm moving very quickly and don't have time to adjust white balance.  

Thoughts, advice, observations?  Thanks in advance!

[elmars]

I cannot confirm this. The AWB works pretty well and constantly, I think, only in artificial light (especially LED) it is sometimes a bit unvohersehbar. 

The hue is generally quite strongly tuned towards magenta. But that is a matter of taste. I mostly like it, but other manufacturers do it differently.

[la1402]

It is interesting to state it works well and then still confirm the magenta shift. That “hue” very often is a problem, especially with skin tones, but also skies. Raws out of the M11 need more often color correction than I experienced with any other camera, even the M10P was better in this regard. But I have to confess using AWB and not custom meter WB every time.  I don’t expect perfection from AWB, but at least something useable. Maybe a conscious choice from Leica to slow you down and focus on “Das Wesentliche” 😏

[jgeenen]

The AWB implementation of the M11 is poor. Although I did not experience any dependency on the metering mode, I find the "decisions" of AWB very sensitive to individual lighting conditions. Other Leica AWB implementations are much more robust to mixed light sources or dominant colors than the M11 implementation. (I consider the described magenta cast not part of the AWB implementation, it is a general behavior of the M11 color reproduction).

I therefore completely moved away from AWB and use fixed settings only. For outdoor and general photography I use a "daylight film" like fixed 5500K setting, for indoor shoots I usually take a generic white balance based on the dominant light source or us a "tungsten film" like fixed 3200K setting. I find this approach giving the most reliable and pleasing results out of camera and tuning in post  easy and consistent.

 

[MyLeicaWorld]

Is it something can be fixed with a firmware?

[Tommi]

I set mine manually to 5500K and left it like that.

[marchyman]

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I set my (now rarely used) DSLR to 5500.  Or maybe it was 5600.  Now I'm wondering why I didn't do the same on my M11.   Did I try and not like the results?

I need to take some test shots and see which setting I prefer, auto or a fixed setting.  And remember the results.

 

Edit: Now I remember.  I left the camera on auto because I apply a white balance of 5600 and a tint of +9 whenever I import into Lightroom.   Now if I can only remember where I set that up.  Perhaps as part of the camera profile I created?  I don't apply any image processing presets upon import.

Edited October 3, 2023 by marchyman

[LBJ2]

 

On 10/2/2023 at 3:59 AM, la1402 said:

It is interesting to state it works well and then still confirm the magenta shift. That “hue” very often is a problem, especially with skin tones, but also skies. Raws out of the M11 need more often color correction than I experienced with any other camera, even the M10P was better in this regard. But I have to confess using AWB and not custom meter WB every time.  I don’t expect perfection from AWB, but at least something useable. Maybe a conscious choice from Leica to slow you down and focus on “Das Wesentliche” 😏

From what I've encountered so far with Lightroom and DXOPhotoLab 6, M11 magenta bias seems to be a Lightroom profile effect.

I've noticed LRC seems to load M11 files with a Tint setting in the range of +16 to +24 mostly in the +20s depending on lighting /colors in the scene--often outside sunlight images. Sometimes this results in a magenta bias in some scenes. Simply sliding the LRC Tint to a lower setting can help to eliminate any noticeable Magenta bias. But don't slide too much as that can introduce green/yellow bias. Usually in the single + digit does it when needed. 

I've also noticed DxOPhotoLab 6 for instance will load the same images with less Tint push normally in the +single digit range and no magenta bias. But again, depends on the colors and lighting in the file. 

These are my general findings for some time now when I do see a combination of colors and light that might result in magenta bias on an M11 file when applying Lightroom profiles. As always YMMV when it comes to colors and of course whatever app is used to process the image can have up to significant impact on colors too. 

[elmars]

I also rarely use the AWB, but usually set it to daylight - as we were used in film days. With fixed white balance, the tint in Lightroom is quite high, at +17. I often like that, much better than a tint of 0, which Nikon, for example, has with fixed white balance. That is much too greenish for me. The best results to my taste (it's largely a matter of taste) give a Tint of +9. That's also the value of the Q3. Leica should do this uniformly or at least offer a choice.

[hmzimelka]

Mine is set to custom WB off a grey card, metered off mid-day sun. This pretty much eliminated any magenta bias too. AWB and Multi-Field metering was not reliable or predictable enough for me.

[la1402]

7 hours ago, elmars said:

I also rarely use the AWB, but usually set it to daylight - as we were used in film days. With fixed white balance, the tint in Lightroom is quite high, at +17. I often like that, much better than a tint of 0, which Nikon, for example, has with fixed white balance. That is much too greenish for me. The best results to my taste (it's largely a matter of taste) give a Tint of +9. That's also the value of the Q3. Leica should do this uniformly or at least offer a choice.

Yes agree, I mostly correct it to +10. Not perfect, but better. 

[ianforber]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:31 PM, LBJ2 said:

 

From what I've encountered so far with Lightroom and DXOPhotoLab 6, M11 magenta bias seems to be a Lightroom profile effect.

I’ve found a slight magenta tint when importuning into Capture One too. I don’t have LR so can’t compare to see if it is better or worse. 

[LBJ2]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:27 AM, ianforber said:

I’ve found a slight magenta tint when importuning into Capture One too. I don’t have LR so can’t compare to see if it is better or worse. 

Thanks for confirming. I was wondering about C1 as I don't use the app. 

[otto.f]

On 10/2/2023 at 9:59 AM, la1402 said:

“Das Wesentliche” 😏

Quite interesting with the current release of the M11-P with it’s world premiere of Content Credentials which is close to hunting for authenticity. 

[otto.f]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:27 PM, ianforber said:

I’ve found a slight magenta tint when importuning into Capture One too. I don’t have LR so can’t compare to see if it is better or worse. 

+1. Haven’t LR either. Much more likely that it’s about how the sensor is being read out differently in M10, M10-R and M11. Or, just as likely, the higher the possible ISO with the camera, the more chance of color faults. This started with changing from CCD to CMOS. 

[jaapv]

The sensor, CCD or CMOS, is a monochrome device which does not produce colour information …

[Photoworks]

8 hours ago, otto.f said:

+1. Haven’t LR either. Much more likely that it’s about how the sensor is being read out differently in M10, M10-R and M11. Or, just as likely, the higher the possible ISO with the camera, the more chance of color faults. This started with changing from CCD to CMOS. 

aren't the colors of the M11 cleaner than M9?

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

aren't the colors of the M11 cleaner than M9?

Not to my taste, absolutely not even

[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

Not to my taste, absolutely not even

Is there any color science in taste?

Just keep using the M9 for your happiness.

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Hallo,

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[don daniel]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

aren't the colors of the M11 cleaner than M9?

Absolutely! As soon as the white balance is corrected, the M11 delivers the truest colors of all M bodies to date. Which doesn't mean that everyone has to like it. But I find it problematic that the lovers of rather special color tastes obviously set the tone at Leica and also here in the forum. Couldn't we agree that a camera should deliver the most natural and realistic color reproduction possible? All special tastes can be quickly achieved in post-processing with just a few clicks on filters. With the M11, however, I have to go the other way around: The result delivered by the camera, whether DNG or JPG, forces me to readjust every image. I can't solve this with a preset either. In Lightroom, for example, I can only save temperature and tint together as a preset.  However, the temperature of the automatic white balance rarely bothers me, but I nearly always find the tint wrong. If I work with a fixed white balance (sunny, cloudy, etc.), then both values are actually never correct: neither temperature nor tint. If I could split the white balance in the preset (temperature automatically and tint as a fixed value at +10), then I could proceed with less effort and would then only have to adjust the tint in artificial light. But even that would be completely unnecessary if Leica were to improve the tuning of the white balance.