Is this a prototype? Help please!

[drnda]

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Greetings to everyone in the group.  I almost came into possession of a collection of leica camera, in which there are many specific models.  please help with identification.  I am sending pictures of the first one.  any help is welcome.  thank you all in advance

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[Anbaric]

That would be interesting if it left the factory that way, to say the least. Hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about can weigh in on whether this is likely. I imagine you've seen this:

https://leicarumors.com/2021/08/21/a-leicarumors-reader-bought-this-rare-leica-iiig-black-paint-camera-in-2019-for-23800-and-sold-it-for-477000-in-2021.aspx/

info@leica-camera.com will be able to comment on the serial number, but a serious expert would be needed to assess the authenticity (or otherwise) of something like this (I expect there will be some suggestions for people to consult presently).

Edited September 12, 2023 by Anbaric

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello drnda,

Welcome to the Forum.

This IIIg seems to have more wear on various parts of the camera, underneath the paint, than the condition of the black finish reflects. Which may indicate that the black finish might have been put on the camera after it had some wear.

The IIIg's in the batch that this number is part of do not indicate that any were made in Black. Altho, a camera could have been made separately to other specifications for someone.

The Swedish Military Black IIIg's that Al mentioned above came with winding knob & other fittings which were also in black. Except the little arrow indicating the actual exposure number & the advance - rewind arrow. These are white on the Swedish Military IIIg's. And they are black on this camera.

Also, the alignment dot to the left, as we view it, of the flash socket on the back: Is white on the Swedish IIIg's & is black on this camera.

By the way, do you have any other photos of the lens?

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Michael Geschlecht

[nitroplait]

My bet is on a later third party repaint. Which would be the first assumption if not on the black paint list.

The look is also off. The surface sheen of the black parts does not look 1950’s at all. And the fact that only the top and base is painted seems a bit lazy - I haven’t see any authentic BP Leica like that.

[250swb]

A very bad paint job makes it very suspicious, as does the title of the thread.

[Anbaric]

The thread title was presumably suggested by the engraving on the bottom plate - 'handmuster' (mostly without the hyphen) seems to be a technical term for a form of prototype, which has been used in the Leica context for one of Barnack's early pre-production cameras. The question is whether this has anything to do with Leitz - a camera could be repainted and engraved like this for some innocent but unknown reason unconnected with the factory (who is Dr Paulsen?), or someone could have attempted to embellish an ordinary IIIg with features associated with two very desirable cameras (Barnack's handmuster and the Swedish black paint IIIg prototype) intending to inflate its value, or it really might have an interesting factory history. The first test of the last possibility is to ask Leica about the serial number - if it's just recorded as an ordinary IIIg that was shipped to a dealer, it's hard to make the case this is anything other than a third party job. If they have a record of something interesting associated with this serial number (not necessarily connected with the Swedish models), then it needs expert appraisal.

[drnda]

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Many thanks for the answers.

 @Al Brown
 My English is not the best so google translate translated it in its own way.  My friend bought the collection and since he ran out of money, I bought it from him.  I'm not an expert on Leica cameras, but I've started learning and asking questions since I bought the collection.  I bought the cameras and they are mine.

 @250swb
 It is possible that the painting is bad, I don't understand that.  I don't know why you find the topic title suspicious and how you came to that conclusion?  I'm new to the forum and this is my first post, so if I did something wrong, I apologize, you should guide me and not immediately "mark" me as suspicious.

 @Anbaric
 Exactly.  The inscription on the bottom plate of the camera "hand muster dr paulsen" is strange to me.  That's why I thought it might be a prototype.

 I've seen iiig black cameras used by journalists and they don't have crowns like the Swedish Army cameras.
 If you need another picture, I will be happy to add it.  Once again, thank you all for your efforts and help.

[250swb]

4 hours ago, Anbaric said:

The thread title was presumably suggested by the engraving on the bottom plate - 'handmuster' (mostly without the hyphen) seems to be a technical term for a form of prototype, which has been used in the Leica context for one of Barnack's early pre-production cameras. The question is whether this has anything to do with Leitz - a camera could be repainted and engraved like this for some innocent but unknown reason unconnected with the factory (who is Dr Paulsen?), or someone could have attempted to embellish an ordinary IIIg with features associated with two very desirable cameras (Barnack's handmuster and the Swedish black paint IIIg prototype) intending to inflate its value, or it really might have an interesting factory history. The first test of the last possibility is to ask Leica about the serial number - if it's just recorded as an ordinary IIIg that was shipped to a dealer, it's hard to make the case this is anything other than a third party job. If they have a record of something interesting associated with this serial number (not necessarily connected with the Swedish models), then it needs expert appraisal.

The serial number isn't even near the Swedish production run, it comes in a run of 3850 ordinary IIIG's. As pointed out earlier there is a dent underneath unmarked paint, and the paint isn't like any Leica were using at the time. It may be just an artefact caused by the light, but the film reminder dial also looks to have some wear while the paint remains pristine. It would be good to see a better photo of other silver parts to see if they have marks and scratches not consistent with the paintwork.

Edited September 13, 2023 by 250swb

[pedaes]

17 minutes ago, 250swb said:

The serial number isn't even near

You are much too  'get factual / get real' for this type of thread!

[drnda]

This is whole collection

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[pippy]

10 hours ago, nitroplait said:

My bet is on a later third party repaint...

I'm far from being an expert but yes; almost certainly.

There is wear on the chrome-plated bits but no nicks / chips / scratches on the painted parts which is a highly unlikely scenario. Additionally, looking at the gap between covering and baseplate in the third snap, I have a suspicion that the camera has been re-skinned.

Nothing whatsoever 'wrong' (IMO) with a re-fin & re-skin just so long as no-one is trying to pretend that it is something other than what it really is.

Philip.

[pippy]

4 minutes ago, drnda said:

This is whole collection...

And very nice it is too!

Philip.

[250swb]

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

You are much too  'get factual / get real' for this type of thread!

Sorry.

[250swb]

17 minutes ago, drnda said:

This is whole collection

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That's a great collection, but revealingly the black M3 appears to be in exactly the same decorative style as the IIIG. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by 250swb

[drnda]

yes.. and there are no serial numbers on the black m3 either.. that's why it was all strange to me because there are a lot of specific cameras..

also these 2 red m3s from Stockholm fire insurance

[250swb]

48 minutes ago, drnda said:

yes.. and there are no serial numbers on the black m3 either.. that's why it was all strange to me because there are a lot of specific cameras..

also these 2 red m3s from Stockholm fire insurance

The lack of serial numbers on the M3 is a red flag, Leica didn’t make prototypes without a documentation, and the red M3 covering is again a collector choice probably when the original vulcanite crumbled. So there are now a few cameras in the collection that show signs of collector customisation. In fact given there’s a copy of the ‘Leica Camera Repair Handbook’ in the photo all the work could have been done by the collector himself.

Edited September 13, 2023 by 250swb

[drnda]

mine are the same as the one sold on ebay.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/334849998403?hash=item4df69d7e43:g:z4UAAOSwDZJkSpPc&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwOsLQB6UFN9HQ4aqJlqSKxinOEh2PUTG%2FMLObqcGpUd8g5s1ls9SeRDj3jDVkBtEJGft95V1usbNug7t4cr7NpQiX8GiOzgfZQntw6ieLMj9is3OJQs4Dy%2BUbptGHZN496EbZij8q5Gu03eKBypoveNGM5jVxaGFFHy4vD1AxbnaBIrkCp%2FPmPctf1mlGmmBPLbI6zuJjdv%2BPdIOIU4A70ucnirODzv3W270rLSPwXKUCiWAxeyA6STsgdcibjXdgg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8q9lPjRYg

they are just from the another year

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[250swb]

So effectively somebody has been making their own very poor commemorative editions that have nothing to do with Leica themselves. And sadly they’ve devalued the cameras in doing so. I think there is some fraud going on with the eBay sale.

Edited September 13, 2023 by 250swb

[drnda]

43 minutes ago, 250swb said:

So effectively somebody has been making their own very poor commemorative editions that have nothing to do with Leica themselves. And sadly they’ve devalued the cameras in doing so. I think there is some fraud going on with the eBay sale.

I really asked for help from the experts and here is what I have personally researched in the last 2-3 months since owning the collection.  I am very embarrassed that someone considers me a fraud.  sir thank you for your light knowledge and opinion which is weaker than my few months of experience.  who only thinks of fraud, probably has something to do with fraud himself.  I thank you and you don't have to "help" me and insult me anymore.

Edited September 13, 2023 by drnda

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[250swb]

13 minutes ago, drnda said:

I really asked for help from the experts and here is what I have personally researched in the last 2-3 months since owning the collection.  I am very embarrassed that someone considers me a fraud.  sir thank you for your light knowledge and opinion which is weaker than my few months of experience.  who only thinks of fraud, probably has something to do with fraud himself.  I thank you and you don't have to "help" me and insult me anymore.

I said the eBay sale was a fraud, not you. Here is a clue that should be useful if you read the eBay description about an original 1964 camera, look at the strap lugs. Or are you the eBay seller??