Buying an M11M - any hidden traps?

[mfunnell]

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I'm thinking very seriously of buying an M11M. Yes, it seems (at least to me) a bit outré to buy a monochrome-only camera when I can make perfectly good (to my tastes) conversions from colour with my M type 240. However: I'm about to receive some funds with an instruction to "spend some of it on something self-indulgent".

I think an M11M makes the cut as "self-indulgent". I'm about 60% (and increasing) inclined towards doing just that.

Whether I do that or not, I am going to buy at least one top-of-the-line Leica lens (also self-indulgent, given I have lots of excellent M lenses). I am going to buy, at least, the 2022 version of the Summilux 35m/f1.4 ASPH because I have no fast 35mm lens and, if I'm being self-indulgent, why not go straight to the top? But I'm considering others (including the 2023 Summilux 50mm/f1.4 ASPH).

I'm posting because I have questions:

1. Are there any "hidden traps" in buying an M11M? Or is it a safe purchase, at the top of the tree (as it were) for monochrome-only cameras? (Or should I consider an earlier Monochrom model?)
2. Are there any reasons I should reconsider, or refrain from buying, either of the above Summilux lenses?
3. Are there any other (new, modern) lenses I should consider because they're especially good when paired with an M11M (or other Monochrom)? (Note: I'm well served for older lenses.)
4. Are there any major reasons why I should also consider a new colour M11, given that I'm perfectly happy with my M type 240?

Thanks in advance for any and all replies 🤞

   ...Mike

P.S. Below, for what it's worth and to add visual interest, is a recent B&W conversion I did from a shot taken with my M type 240. I'm not sure if it's to anyone else's taste, but it is to mine. There is, of course (in my fortunate circumstances), no reason I can't both buy an M11M and keep my M type 240 for when I want to shoot colour or don't know what my intentions are. The Monochrom will be for occasions when my intent is to take B&W only.

P.P.S. In the (unlikely, IMO) event that this kind of 'look' isn't suited to the M11M then it would be worth pointing that out to me, too.

 

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Edited August 30, 2023 by mfunnell
Adding image properly, minor wording correction.

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

Buying the M 11 or not that`s your decission. I prefer the M 10-R. But the really best lens is on my opinion the APO-Summicron 35 mm (10 single lenses in total, 4 aspharics, 3 floting elements, minimal distance 30 cm).

[mfunnell]

3 minutes ago, Hans-Dieter Gülicher said:

But the really best lens is on my opinion the APO-Summicron 35 mm (10 single lenses in total, 4 aspharics, 3 floting elements, minimal distance 30 cm).

Thanks, and that might well be so. However: I have 35mm/f2 lenses I like well enough (even if they’re not “the best”). I don’t have a 35mm/f1.4 - and if I’m being self-indulgent I figure: why not go for the latest-and-greatest ‘lux?

   …Mike

[Jipster]

5 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The price.

I don’t think the price is “hidden”. 😉

[mfunnell]

7 minutes ago, Jipster said:

I don’t think the price is “hidden”. 😉

Certainly not. I wouldn’t be talking so much about self-indulgence if I wasn’t well aware of the price! 😂

   …Mike

[MaticB]

When I read your post, I saw myself in the mirror - 2 - 3 months ago! I had M240 and M10R BP, combined, with Summilux 28, APO Summicron 35, Summilux 50 and Summarit 75. My friend, professional photographer, showed me his new M11Monochrom, with which he replaced his excellent M10Monochrom recently, and that provoke serious "desire" in my self-indulgent soul. Me too, I was quite satisfied with my B&W conversions until then and I promise to myself, that I will never buy B&W only camera, but watching post processed photos from M11Mono was decisive moment. Here I must emphasise - good post processed photos! Namely, raw files from B&W cameras may look quite flat, boring, even dissatisfied and patient post-processing is necessary! When done, you really enjoy in amount of information you can get from files -resolution of the files is mind-blowing, details in over and under exposed parts almost always accessible. 

From that decisive moment, I took myself time, and after 2 weeks I called my Leica dealer, and we arrange everything. I put in my M240 and Summilux 50, and I bought M11Monochrom with Summilux 50 (2023). Although I loved M240 and "old" Summilux 50, and in reality I didn't need M11Monochrom, I've never regret that step. I need some time to clear in my mind, when to use M10R and when M11Monochrom now, but this is another fun. And so my advice would be - if you can afford this toy - buy it! I'm not wealthy and I have few years to work until retire, but after that time I intend to spent my time with my hobbies and I consider this period now as last chance to prepare for that! 😉

[Ken Abrahams]

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Sounds fantastic Mike

I finally got the 35 Summilux 1.4 last year. The newer version was already out but I wanted the older one for some reason. You won’t be disappointed with this lens on any monochrom camera. 
 

I have a few 35 mm M lenses but if I was to be self indulgent, the APO M 35 would be great or even the 75 Noctilux a real treat. I also really wish that I had the 50 M Summilux in my kit. I have the M10M and the first M Monochrom cameras. I am an old photographer from the 80’s who spent a decade shooting and processing Black and Whites so I knew what I wanted with my image making. I guess the post processing with M11M images could be a hidden item Mike. There is a lot of work to understand how the files best be worked. I could always enjoy and tolerated hours and hours in darkrooms and similarly on photoshop, these days. 
 

have a great gear purchase 

Ken 

[mfunnell]

15 minutes ago, Ken Abrahams said:

I guess the post processing with M11M images could be a hidden item Mike. There is a lot of work to understand how the files best be worked.

Thanks, Ken.

For your whole post - but I’ll concentrate on this bit.

That’s because I was thinking that, just maybe, starting with an already monochrome image might save me the processing and decision-making steps needed in converting a colour file (picking and choosing how much from each colour to use in the conversion etc.)

I don’t mind putting the work in up front to understand how the camera records (and it isn’t a really major point for me anyway) but I’m still kind of hoping that once I have a good idea of the basics I might still end up with a more streamlined process - rather than having to treat each image as a new/individual challenge just for the conversion part. That can get tedious if working through a lot of photos.

I can still live in hope, though!

   …Mike

Edited August 30, 2023 by mfunnell
Missing word.

[Jeff S]

10 hours ago, mfunnell said:

That’s because I was thinking that, just maybe, starting with an already monochrome image might save me the processing and decision-making steps needed in converting a colour file (picking and choosing how much from each colour to use in the conversion etc.)

I don’t mind putting the work in up front to understand how the camera records (and it isn’t a really major point for me anyway) but I’m still kind of hoping that once I have a good idea of the basics I might still end up with a more streamlined process - rather than having to treat each image as a new/individual challenge just for the conversion part. That can get tedious if working through a lot of photos.

I can still live in hope, though!

   …Mike

Well, one of the decisions one can make with each Monochrom-based photograph is whether to use a particular colored lens filter, much like using B&W film.  After that, processing files to taste involves the same considerations as color conversions, but without the use of color channels (Photoshop ‘tricks’ aside).  
 

For some folks, this is a quick process; for others it’s a very deliberative process, and can vary greatly by picture. It greatly depends on one’s goals (including picture and rendering diversity), knowledge and use of editing and processing techniques (including default import settings, presets, use of tone curves, etc), and desired end product (including screen vs print). 
 

For me, a great print of a special pic is always worth the time and effort to achieve. Anyone can learn techniques (shooting or processing); deciding when, where and to what degree to apply them is the important part.  This is just as true for me whether using my color-based cameras or Monochroms (currently M10M). Neither type guarantees shortcuts.
 

Jeff

Edited August 31, 2023 by Jeff S

[mfunnell]

11 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Well, one of the decisions one can make with each Monochrom-based photograph is whether to use a particular colored lens filter, much like using B&W film.  After that, processing files to taste involves the same considerations as color conversions, but without the use of color channels (Photoshop ‘tricks’ aside).  
 

For some folks, this is a quick process; for others it’s a very deliberative process, and can vary greatly by picture. It greatly depends on one’s goals (including picture and rendering diversity), knowledge and use of editing and processing techniques (including default import settings, presets, use of tone curves, etc), and desired end product (including screen vs print). 
 

For me, a great print of a special pic is always worth the time and effort to achieve. Anyone can learn techniques (shooting or processing); deciding when, where and to what degree to apply them is the important part.  This is just as true for me whether using my color-based cameras or Monochroms (currently M10M). Neither type guarantees shortcuts.
 

Jeff

Thanks Jeff - that's almost exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Whether directly or indirectly, yours (and similar) had me take a closer look (as an 'outside observer' of myself 🙄) at what I actually do during monochrome conversion from a colour original.

I've taken a few photos over the past couple of days where I've deliberately sought out subjects to 'see' in black and white while using decidedly colour (and non-Leica, FWIW) equipment. When doing the conversion to monochrome I found myself really working the colour mix to get the result I wanted. I also recalled that in some cases (not many, and not these, but still) I've deliberately used different mixes for different picture elements to get  just the conversion I was after.

That's a lot of flexibility to give up, in favour of an "already baked in" monochrome interpretation. And while, yes, colour filters can do some of that, I find the thought of faffing-about with filters while taking photos even less appealing than work in post-processing.

This is all good grist for my thought-processing (I've not reached any conclusions yet).

Either way (ie. M11M or not) it's not as if the mother-ship isn't going to get my self-indulgence money anyway - if I don't buy a camera that leaves more budget for lenses. I'll certainly be thinking about this some more (the funds haven't arrived, so I can hardly spend them, yet 😂).

   ...Mike

P.S. For the record, here are a couple of the photos I'm talking about - one from yesterday and one from today. If you're seeing a 'bicycle theme' that's just because I took the photos while riding to the local shops to buy stuff and have a cup of coffee.

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[Jeff S]

38 minutes ago, mfunnell said:

When doing the conversion to monochrome I found myself really working the colour mix to get the result I wanted. I also recalled that in some cases (not many, and not these, but still) I've deliberately used different mixes for different picture elements to get  just the conversion I was after.

 

Use of color channels is only a very small part of my color conversions.  Even then, I find that caution is advisable, as pushing beyond subtle tweaks can have odd effects. My workflow includes various other primary controls (Lightroom Classic, Photoshop, ImagePrint), and can vary greatly between pics depending on lighting and desired rendering.  
 

There are many available resources, especially regarding LR or Photoshop, that can be useful for anyone seeking guidance, including books (Kelby, Bampton, Schewe, Evening, et.al.), videos (Kost and others), as well as workshops that can provide personal feedback. 
 

Printing adds another layer of opportunity for rendering options, not just editing controls, but papers, inks and display lighting.  Much the same as in darkroom days; just different tools with greater flexibility and convenience.

As for “seeing in black and white, this video lecture has been posted here before…

Finally, as I’ve written far too many times already, the primary advantage for me in using a Monochrom has nothing to do with post-processing; rather it’s the fact that I’m not distracted when photographing by the potential opportunity for color pics.  I long ago learned to “see in b&w” from decades with film; that’s not the issue. The issue for me in the digital world is eliminating the temptation to look for color pics and to maintain a different mindset, as I did using b&w film.

Jeff

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, mfunnell said:

That's a lot of flexibility to give up, in favour of an "already baked in" monochrome interpretation. And while, yes, colour filters can do some of that, I find the thought of faffing-about with filters while taking photos even less appealing than work in post-processing.

 

Far from “baked in” IMO.  If that were true, pics from different photographers using the same gear would look and feel similar. How boring that would be.  There is tremendous file flexibility with any modern M, color-based or Monochrom, that can been modified by the myriad software (and print) tools available. The tone curve alone creates many interpretations. I don’t know of any great pics/prints, certainly none of mine, that didn’t require attention to detail and decision making, whether shooting or post-processing.  Just the nature of the hobby for me, whether darkroom or digital. Digital controls may be easier, but judicious use and care remains critical.  
 

Jeff

[mfunnell]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Far from “baked in” IMO.  If that were true, pics from different photographers using the same gear would look and feel similar. How boring that would be.  There is tremendous file flexibility with any modern M, color-based or Monochrom, that can been modified by the myriad software (and print) tools available. The tone curve alone creates many interpretations. I don’t know of any great pics/prints, certainly none of mine, that didn’t require attention to detail and decision making, whether shooting or post-processing.  Just the nature of the hobby for me, whether darkroom or digital. Digital controls may be easier, but judicious use and care remains critical.  
 

Jeff

Jeff - I think you misinterpreted what I meant by “baked in”. I was not, at all, suggesting the photo itself was not available for multiple interpretations. Far from it. What I was referring to was the relative contributions to the tones made by different colours, in the scene in front of the lens, when using a monochrome-only sensor.

When processing a colour DNG into monochrome I can change the relative contributions of different colours to the overall set of monochrome tones.

Without that separated colour information, the relative contributions of each colour are fixed for almost all purposes (and certainly all of mine) by the not-separated-by-colour recording made by the sensor. That’s what I was calling “baked in” - not anything (everything!) else.

I can see (and am considering) the many advantages of mono-only cameras. But there is a trade-off against the near infinite possibilities of mixing separated colours to produce an overall set of monochrome tones.

it seems to me that trade-off is real - so I’m thinking about it. That’s not an insurmountable problem (almost everything involves trade-offs), just something I think I should ponder while deciding where to land.

   …Mike

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, mfunnell said:

Jeff - I think you misinterpreted what I meant by “baked in”. I was not, at all, suggesting the photo itself was not available for multiple interpretations. Far from it. What I was referring to was the relative contributions to the tones made by different colours, in the scene in front of the lens, when using a monochrome-only sensor.

When processing a colour DNG into monochrome I can change the relative contributions of different colours to the overall set of monochrome tones.

Without that separated colour information, the relative contributions of each colour are fixed for almost all purposes (and certainly all of mine) by the not-separated-by-colour recording made by the sensor. That’s what I was calling “baked in” - not anything (everything!) else.

I can see (and am considering) the many advantages of mono-only cameras. But there is a trade-off against the near infinite possibilities of mixing separated colours to produce an overall set of monochrome tones.

it seems to me that trade-off is real - so I’m thinking about it. That’s not an insurmountable problem (almost everything involves trade-offs), just something I think I should ponder while deciding where to land.

   …Mike

I understood what you meant.  But, as mentioned, color channels play a relatively minor role for me. One can still use other local, in addition to global, controls to alter tonal relationships.

I also suggest that you view the linked video.  You might be surprised by some of the discussion regarding colors in B&W photography.  Luminance still matters.

Jeff

[sometimesmaybe]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:31 PM, mfunnell said:

I can't both buy an M11M and keep my M type 240 for when I want to shoot colour or don't know what my intentions are. The Monochrom will be for occasions when my intent is to take B&W only

@mfunnell welcome to the monchrom bandwagon 🙂

just a tangential thought for your consideration - if you don't shoot that much work already, you might be better served with spending most of your coin on some more leica glass and just dip your toes into monochrom via the m246:

1. you have the m240 already, the m246 makes a natural pairing for accessories/batteries etc;
2. the m246 hits a real 'price to performance' sweet spot (easily the most underrated M monochrom);
3. if you decide using a M monochrom isn't for you, the depreciation won't sting as much; and
4. the psychology of shooting and editing a M monochrom is just completely different - you won't really know until you start shooting and editing the monochrom files (might be worth also having a look at this other monochrom thread)

 

 

[Luke_Miller]

14 hours ago, sometimesmaybe said:

@mfunnell welcome to the monchrom bandwagon 🙂

just a tangential thought for your consideration - if you don't shoot that much work already, you might be better served with spending most of your coin on some more leica glass and just dip your toes into monochrom via the m246:

I shoot with the M240 and M246.  I choose to stay with them rather than moving to the current versions.  They meet my needs and while the newer models are better, these are good enough.  There is also a hidden cost to upgrading. On occasion I need the EVF, an arca-swiss baseplate, a grip for flash or heavy lens, and a half case, and I always need an eyepiece diopter.  None of mine are usable on the new models and their cost must be factored in.

My favorite M body is my original MM.  While not as full featured as the M246 it always feels better in my hand. Its CCD sensor lacks the ISO performance of newer CMOS Monochroms, but modern noise reduction applications makes that less of a factor.

[Stevejack]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:31 PM, mfunnell said:

Thanks, Ken.

For your whole post - but I’ll concentrate on this bit.

That’s because I was thinking that, just maybe, starting with an already monochrome image might save me the processing and decision-making steps needed in converting a colour file (picking and choosing how much from each colour to use in the conversion etc.)

I don’t mind putting the work in up front to understand how the camera records (and it isn’t a really major point for me anyway) but I’m still kind of hoping that once I have a good idea of the basics I might still end up with a more streamlined process - rather than having to treat each image as a new/individual challenge just for the conversion part. That can get tedious if working through a lot of photos.

I can still live in hope, though!

   …Mike

After finding that I was converting almost all of my colour shots to black and white, and shooting intentionally to bring the best out of a black and white image, I realised that a monochrom camera made sense. I love the M10M, but I also have mistaken colour-converted images for images from my Monochrom on numerous occasions. Once the images are edited to my taste, there's really nothing in it. That said - starting with a monochrome file gives you benefits in that you can push and pull the files a lot more than with a colour camera, but if you're not taking photos where this is an advantage, you may not see the benefits as much as the next person. Also if you're not composing with black and white in mind, and relying on colour channels to balance your images, the monochrom sensor will be a major disadvantage. 

In comparing my M10M files to my M11 or Sony files, no-one will ever see any difference in my output. If I can confuse my own work then I think that says a lot. I do appreciate when I have an M10M file in lightroom because they are such beautiful clean files to edit. I should have sold the M10M by now but I love the monochrom files so much that I can't bring myself to do it. If my wife and kids didn't insist that I take colour photos when we're out and about I would probably only own an M11M. 

 

[newtoleica]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:05 PM, Stevejack said:

After finding that I was converting almost all of my colour shots to black and white, and shooting intentionally to bring the best out of a black and white image, I realised that a monochrom camera made sense. I love the M10M, but I also have mistaken colour-converted images for images from my Monochrom on numerous occasions. Once the images are edited to my taste, there's really nothing in it. That said - starting with a monochrome file gives you benefits in that you can push and pull the files a lot more than with a colour camera, but if you're not taking photos where this is an advantage, you may not see the benefits as much as the next person. Also if you're not composing with black and white in mind, and relying on colour channels to balance your images, the monochrom sensor will be a major disadvantage. 

In comparing my M10M files to my M11 or Sony files, no-one will ever see any difference in my output. If I can confuse my own work then I think that says a lot. I do appreciate when I have an M10M file in lightroom because they are such beautiful clean files to edit. I should have sold the M10M by now but I love the monochrom files so much that I can't bring myself to do it. If my wife and kids didn't insist that I take colour photos when we're out and about I would probably only own an M11M. 

 

Yes, you can edit to look pretty similar from all sorts of digital files. Original Monochrom, Sony RX1R and darkroom printed Tri-X flat-bed scanned 12x16 inch prints all here. can you tell which is which? 
https://www.brendandelaneyphotography.com/121eb6f785-gallery

[Herr Barnack]

@mfunnell

I would say (1.) if you mainly shoot B&W, get them M11M.  

Or (2.) If you mainly shoot color, get the M11-P. 

Or (3.) If you  mainly shoot color but want to take a deep dive into B&W, maybe consider getting the M11M.

As for the M240, I have shot with my M-P 240 Safari for many years.  I get into situations where I am painted into a corn er exposure wise due to the M-P 240's maximum ISO of 6400.  For making exhibit quality prints, I have found ISO 800 to be about the maximum usable ISO with the M-P 240.  Therefore I am selling off my M-P 240 to help finance an M11-P which has a maximum usable ISO of 10,000, give or take. 

This will be a monumental upgrade in terms of usable ISO.  I have been pretty much happy with the M-P 240, except for the usable ISO issue.  The M11-P will be a camera that is more capable and I expect to be more happy with it.

I have come to realize that I am primarily a color photographer.  Therefore I will upgrade to the M11-P but i will also keep my M10M for projects that demand B&W.  That's my thinking. 

I hope this helps in your decision making process. YMMV of course.

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[Besprosvet]

On 9/1/2023 at 1:02 AM, sometimesmaybe said:

@mfunnell welcome to the monchrom bandwagon 🙂

just a tangential thought for your consideration - if you don't shoot that much work already, you might be better served with spending most of your coin on some more leica glass and just dip your toes into monochrom via the m246:

1. you have the m240 already, the m246 makes a natural pairing for accessories/batteries etc;
2. the m246 hits a real 'price to performance' sweet spot (easily the most underrated M monochrom);
3. if you decide using a M monochrom isn't for you, the depreciation won't sting as much; and
4. the psychology of shooting and editing a M monochrom is just completely different - you won't really know until you start shooting and editing the monochrom files (might be worth also having a look at this other monochrom thread)

 

 

True, unless you want to shoot flat night skies above 6400 iso, the M246 is fantastic.