Leica S2-P/006 advice please

[w44neg]

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Hi all, I fancy adding an old dinosaur of a Leica to my kit. I’m losing the joy of photography a little and I find everything to basically be a computer rather than a camera these days. 
 

Budget is tight, and therefore I’m looking at either an S2-P or a 006. I see the main difference to be noise levels but honestly, I’ll probably only shoot at the lowest of iso values anyway, so I’m not too fussed about that. 
 

Does anyone know if these CCD models suffer like the M9 with corrosion? I’ve found one camera that’s had a replacement sensor and it got me thinking that perhaps they do. 
 

If they do suffer, is it likely that the replacement will also have corrosion issues in the future as well, and therefore I’m purchasing a ticking time bomb. 
 

Finally, what are peoples’ experiences of these cameras. I don’t want any comparisons to GFX etc as I’ve set my heart on these two options. 
 

Thank you in advance 

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[Nick Guttridge]

I have the 007 (S2) which I find perfect for my needs. It's slightly faster to use than the S3 and although the chip isn't meant to be as good for colour and obviously I don't have the bigger resolution I'm more than happy with it. 

You can buy second hand S lenses really quite inexpensively now also. 

The S system can be bought for an inexpensive price second hand. Which for Leica kit is an opportunity. When using the S I do feel that the camera is doing all I would ask from it. As I shoot most of my work at 1/1000th of a second (freezing movement).

[BernardC]

35 minutes ago, w44neg said:

Does anyone know if these CCD models suffer like the M9 with corrosion? I’ve found one camera that’s had a replacement sensor and it got me thinking that perhaps they do. 

Yes, they do. It's the same sensor architecture as the M9, originally from Kodak. You can contact Leica support with a serial number to see if a sensor has been replaced. The replacement sensor may be free of the issue, or not, depending on when it was changed. Leica doesn't want to promise that there won't be an issue with these new parts in 10 years, of course, but they should be OK for a while.

The easiest way to test for this is by taking a shot of a bright scene, stopped-down as much as possible. I use my monitor on a white page (blank document). You'll see dark smudges in your files if there is an issue. The smudges are blurry, so if you see sharp spots it's probably dust, or the odd bad pixel which can be re-mapped.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I shot both the S2 and S006 and did not find any significant difference in terms of image quality. There are, however, a lot of nice quality of life improvements in the S006, such that I would definitely get one over the S2 unless there was a large difference in price. The menu system is easier and more modern, the screen is much better and things like zooming around a photo are very strange in the S2. You can get used to it, but the S006 is a more modern and better camera. It also has a slightly more useful ISO range, being 100-1600 instead of 160-1200. As as newer camera, things like the battery and displays will probably last moderately longer, but that will also be related to the use levels. As stated above, CCD corrosion is the same as with the M9, and if you are interested in one for the longer term, it is probably worth paying the extra for one with a replaced sensor.

The color out of the camera on both is still excellent, and if you treat it more like a film camera than a digital one (IE not really going over ISO 400), you will find the results to be exceptional. I shot the S006 for seven years, only replacing it with the SL2. In most cases the color in the S006 was slightly better, but it also has a bit more of a vintage look than the SL2. A bit more contrast and color saturation, closer to something like E100G when in good conditions. Kodak really knows its stuff when it comes to color and Leica really knows its stuff when it comes to build quality, optics and ergonomics, and they come together into an exceptional system. It is a shame they did not get as much traction as the other brands, because in many ways they were superior. I did find the out of camera files from the S2 and S006 to be some of the best of any camera I ever used. When properly exposed they really need very little work. This is the downside of DR that most don't talk about -- having a huge dynamic range can leave photos looking a bit lifeless or unnatural (HDR look at worst), and they often need editing after the fact. The DR in the S006 is large enough to be more than enough in most situations, and it renders scenes a bit more natural looking. If you are trying to shoot into the sun and lift your shadows, you are not going to have much luck as you would with an S007 or more modern digital camera, but again, if you treat it like slide film I think you will have very few issues.

If I were buying one today, my main question would be the sensor corrosion, as well as the battery condition. If the battery is in decent shape, all you need is one. They last forever...remarkably longer than in most cameras. Of course a backup is always good to have, but you will rarely need it unless you turn off auto power off and forget to turn off the camera, for example.

I would also highly recommend getting at least one S lens in your main focal length. The 70mm is great, as are nearly all. The 45mm and 120mm are the standouts in terms of sharpness and freedom from aberration, but all are still extraordinarily good (well, the 30-90 is stellar in some ways, but not on the level of the primes). You can of course use adapted lenses, but the biggest joy of the S system is the quality and synergy of the lenses. They are all great and look very homogeneous, so they act more like a matched set of high end cinema lenses....which is what Leica subsequently turned them into (Thalia series).

Edited August 22, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[w44neg]

Thank you so much for all the replies. I’ve missed being in the Leica fold and this forum always reminds me of why I love this eco system so much. 
 

I think the last comment has swayed me on choice as well. 006 sounds like a great option for my needs. 

[Pieter12]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

Yes, they do. It's the same sensor architecture as the M9, originally from Kodak. You can contact Leica support with a serial number to see if a sensor has been replaced. The replacement sensor may be free of the issue, or not, depending on when it was changed. Leica doesn't want to promise that there won't be an issue with these new parts in 10 years, of course, but they should be OK for a while.

The easiest way to test for this is by taking a shot of a bright scene, stopped-down as much as possible. I use my monitor on a white page (blank document). You'll see dark smudges in your files if there is an issue. The smudges are blurry, so if you see sharp spots it's probably dust, or the odd bad pixel which can be re-mapped.

 

I was under the impression that dust is blurry and corrosion/oxidation spots are sharp, dark spots with a white halo.

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If you can find an S006 with the sensor replaced for a good price (sub $3000 or so), I’d highly recommend it. Besides other differences, the 006 has a joy stick which I believe the S2 doesn’t - it makes things much  easier operationally speaking. I’ve had mine for close to five years, in fact I’m traveling with it right now in Southern California, taking pictures post-Hilary and along the beaches of Venice and Santa Monica. The GPS function helps a lot for my kind of work, too. Indestructible piece of kit, Leica‘s S line, just be prepared for the heft. Btw, the DNG files not only exhibit a truly beautiful and smooth color gradation, but they also translate very nicely into the monochrome space, i.e., b/w. 

[w44neg]

Thanks, I've had some news from Leica stating the camera I've found had the sensor replaced. It was "replaced with the new sensor which will no longer have corrosion...".

Does anyone know if the newer sensor...

a) Will never suffer corrosion or it's just not going to happen for a long time

b) Will it be different to the original sensor in terms of performance or colour in any way?

Thanks

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, w44neg said:

Does anyone know if the newer sensor...

a) Will never suffer corrosion or it's just not going to happen for a long time

b) Will it be different to the original sensor in terms of performance or colour in any way?

No one can possibly know a), but I am confident that you'll get many years of use out of this sensor. The camera is fully serviced when the sensor is replaced, so it's essentially new.

I wouldn't expect any notable difference in performance between the old and new sensor, unless you are looking at an S2. In that case you might get a small bump in sensitivity.

[w44neg]

Thanks for all your help on this. After almost going ahead with the S006, I was swayed today by a deal that was too good to pass up on an SL2-S. I'm still going to keep an eye out for an S, but for now I guess I'm sticking with CMOS.

[davidmknoble]

Just another note on the S2.  I started with the S2-P and had lots of lockups with CF and SD cards.  I think the software / hardware connectivity was not near as good as with the S006 and forward.  I spent a lot of time pulling out batteries, sticking them back in and turning the camera back on...

[jip]

The S2, S2-P, S (Typ 006) and S-E (Typ 006) all have the same sensor. Between the S2 and S (Typ 006) there are some improvements in the analog digital converters and thus a bit better ISO can be squeezed out of the same sensor. The S (Typ 006) has a more modern user interface, and in general has some quality of life improvements over the S2. 

Sensors: YES they can corrode like the M9. There is no 'button dance' available to figure out what sensor you have, Leica can tell you based on the serial number if the sensor was replaced. If it was replaced in 2016 then it can be a new old sensor, or a new new sensor. And in that year they need to get the camera shipped in to figure out what sensor you have built in.

You can read all about it in my Article: "Leica S-E (Typ 006 seven years later". Its a 'review' I wrote after owning the camera for a long time.
https://jipvankuijk.nl/leica-s-e-typ-006-seven-years-later/

Seeing how u bought a SL2-S it seems you're looking to buy something new, rather than buy something specific. 🤣 Since a SL2-S is exactly what u said you do not wish for: a computer.

TLDR:
Yes sensors do corrode, get an S (Typ 006) or S-E (Typ 006) not an S2/S2-P for quality of life improvements. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by jip

[jankap]

Very good pictures in your review!

 

[Tirpitz666]

Reviving this oldish thread with a question: do all old S2/006 develop corrosion over time or by now if one hasn’t develop any after so many years can it be reasonably considered “safe”, even if not 100% of course?

[BernardC]

6 hours ago, Tirpitz666 said:

Reviving this oldish thread with a question: do all old S2/006 develop corrosion over time or by now if one hasn’t develop any after so many years can it be reasonably considered “safe”, even if not 100% of course?

I wouldn't bet that an original sensor is immune to corrosion, however you can now have your sensor fixed by Kolarivision at a cheaper cost than what Leica charges. They are well known for "full spectrum" conversions on other sensors. They replace the cover glass instead of the whole sensor.

[Tirpitz666]

Thank you, yes, I've seen, but it's an USD 1.999 affair (plus shipping and VAT for us lucky Europeans), so definitely still not a palatable option I'd say, if you buy a used camera for well under 3k.

[Stuart Richardson]

I think that calculation is one that only a buyer can make. No one really knows the rates of failure, or if they do, they don't seem to be very public. I shot my S006 for 7 years without a problem, if I recall. It will also depend on your climate and conditions. I am up in Iceland where it may be wet outside, but it is always cold and so indoor heating is always on and people leave their windows open, so the humidity indoors is desert-like (10% in the winter if you do not intervene). Someone living in a more tropical climate is likely to have much faster rates of corrosion. Any camera as old as an S2 or S006 is going to be somewhat of a gamble, as it is likely to have had at least ten years of use, and even if it was in a cabinet the entire time, 10 years of environmental wear (humidity, cosmic rays, mineral reactions in glass that leads to haze and so on. It does not mean there will be problems, but it certainly means they are more likely to occur than in a camera that is two years old. I think it is fine to get one, but also be aware that you may need to fix or maintain it. 2000 dollars is a lot to replace the camera, but it is also less than 10% of what it cost new over a decade ago. There has been 47% inflation in the US since the S2 was introduced, so the retail equivalent price today would be 34000 dollars.

[Tirpitz666]

Yeah, all valid points of course, and prices of the 006 and 007 have gotten pretty close now, so it's increasingly difficult to make the case for the 006, save for two big BUTs on my side:

- CCD colors (debated of course to deatch here and elsewhere, but I'm contantly amazed by the colors that my DMR churns out without any effort that I'd would really like to find something similar but more modern and usable and the 006 seems the only game in town in that regard) 

- CCD "sharpness" vs CMOS: in my personal experience, all the CCD cameras that I had, including the lowly 10MP DMR, show a per-pixel acutance and microcontrast right off the bat that I've basically never found on CMOS exquipped cameras, until maybe with the advent of 47+ MP recent sensors (that anyway require some post-processing to obtain similar results to even lower MP CCDs). Maybe it's because I'm used to Foveon cameras and the CCD images tend to look much closer to them than CMOS-originated ones, or maybe is just everything in my head.. 🙂

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[jip]

On 10/15/2024 at 7:55 AM, Tirpitz666 said:

Reviving this oldish thread with a question: do all old S2/006 develop corrosion over time or by now if one hasn’t develop any after so many years can it be reasonably considered “safe”, even if not 100% of course?

Hey, sorry for this quite late reply:

A corrosion susceptible sensor will corrode sooner or later, the fact it didn't corrode yet doesn't mean anything. So no, if it didn't corrode yet, that doesn't mean it's safe from corrosion. 

 

[Pieter12]

9 hours ago, jip said:

Hey, sorry for this quite late reply:

A corrosion susceptible sensor will corrode sooner or later, the fact it didn't corrode yet doesn't mean anything. So no, if it didn't corrode yet, that doesn't mean it's safe from corrosion. 

 

I am under the impression that the replacement sensors do not corrode.