Where next for the digital M platform?

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

More tradition or more modernity? Both hopefully.
Tradition: the effective base length of the rangefinder begins to be too short for demanding lenses like 90/1.5 or 75/1.25. Only way to improve this, besides VF magnification, is enhancing the mechanical base length of the rangefinder. 75mm instead of 69.31mm, possibly, or a bit more or less given that 75mm was the Zeiss MBL.
Modernity: IBIS of course, global shutter when technically possible and a better resolution for the Visoflex.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Greenhilltony]

Been shooting on the M10-P for a few months and recent 2 weeks on the M4. The first difference I noticed is the build quality. My made in 1968 M4 feels much more solid than the M10-P, more weight-balanced and elegant, the engravings are cleaner and better. The engravings on my black M10-P start to diffuse a bit and look like written with a white chalk on the blackboard. The second difference I realized is I don’t have to worry about the startup-time on M4. I have lost a few chances while waking up the M10-P on the street. The third thing is the shutter, the M10-P is surely the quieter one, but it is vertical-running blades. The release button on M10-P is harder to reach with the joint of my forefinger to “squeeze-in” the shutter release. Finally, the M10-P gets heated easily when shooting under the sun…which is inevitable for a digital camera, the circuits are doing their jobs.

 

So what would I expect for the next gen digital-M? Start-up time and traditional-feeling shutter are my first priorities. Remove the display is a good option, though Live View has helped me get accurately framed photos several times. 

 

[WvE]

Leica might be at a crossroads. On the one hand, keep the M updated with all the latest and greatest tech, or just go back to improved simplicity but with a special sensor, leaving the tech race to the SL system. I don't have the answer.  

[MyLeicaWorld]

1 hour ago, WvE said:

Leica might be at a crossroads. On the one hand, keep the M updated with all the latest and greatest tech, or just go back to improved simplicity but with a special sensor, leaving the tech race to the SL system. I don't have the answer.  

I think the second choice must be their path to follow ..

[WvE]

2 minutes ago, MyLeicaWorld said:

I think the second choice must be their path to follow ..

Personally, I would prefer that choice too, but Leica needs to sell the M so I'm afraid that the first choice will be the realistic one.  

[idusidusi]

5 hours ago, Multicoated said:

If size is the issue they can work to make the SL smaller. 

That would be my choice. Leave the M as is. The M11 is a fantastic iteration of a brilliant camera. The SL.range are all fantastic, but too big and too heavy. Made smaller and a little lighter I would be more than interested in an SL camera.

[hdmesa]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

10 hours ago, Jeff S said:

First I’ve heard of that. Any related discussion or basis?

Jeff

I don’t think I’ve heard anyone else say this nor do it still have an M11 to verify. But at least this M11M doesn’t freeze up like my multiple M11s did.

[Smudgerer]

On 8/20/2023 at 2:07 PM, evikne said:

For me, the ultimate M should have the dimensions and design as close as possible to an original film M, only with a digital sensor (the best possible, however). No more, no less. That's what I think Leica should strive for. Avoid derailments and leave all other subtleties to other camera models.

Right, but the trouble with this is that "the best sensor" is a mirage, for many it's all too soon not the new one they've just bought, it's the "improved" one with more whatever else that's coming next.

[evikne]

15 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Right, but the trouble with this is that "the best sensor" is a mirage, for many it's all too soon not the new one they've just bought, it's the "improved" one with more whatever else that's coming next.

This will always be a problem with digital sensors, unless they make one that is interchangeable (which might be a good idea if possible).

[Smudgerer]

13 minutes ago, evikne said:

This will always be a problem with digital sensors, unless they make one that is interchangeable (which might be a good idea if possible).

Right, if only they would.....but they won't. The only interchangeable sensor out there is the film camera.

[Jipster]

On 8/20/2023 at 9:04 AM, newtoleica said:

That's about 10x the cost of a same size darkroom print.... so not at all cheap!

Really? 12x16 in RC Pearl Ilford is $132 for 50 sheets; 11x17 inches Canson Platine (nicer paper IMHO) is  $81 for 25 sheets. Harder to compare ink to chemicals and the added paper wasted in the darkroom to do basic dodge and burn. Not sure how you get to 10 times. Not considering of course the cost of film and development. Sorry, but this does not fly.

JP

[mediumformula]

I'm pretty content with my M11M and there isn't much I would change about it.  I think the most likely notable changes to a future M will be loss of mechanical shutter and IBIS.  I would be happy with IBIS if they can fit it in the same or smaller form factor M, but I'm not sure how I feel about losing the mechanical shutter.  Even if an all electronic shutter was technologically superior, I like feeling and hearing the sound of the shutter when I take a picture on an M.

[newtoleica]

8 hours ago, Multicoated said:

100%

All they have to do is perfect and shrink the SL instead of changing the M. 

The camera that should be competing with the Sony isn’t the M; it should be the SL. an SL the size of the Sony A7 would be awesome. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The A7 has got A lot bigger now though….. 

[newtoleica]

52 minutes ago, Jipster said:

Really? 12x16 in RC Pearl Ilford is $132 for 50 sheets; 11x17 inches Canson Platine (nicer paper IMHO) is  $81 for 25 sheets. Harder to compare ink to chemicals and the added paper wasted in the darkroom to do basic dodge and burn. Not sure how you get to 10 times. Not considering of course the cost of film and development. Sorry, but this does not fly.

JP

Getting off topic… which I didn’t intend. The paper has I think doubled in price in past 5 yrs (my old stock) but agree it’s perhaps stretching the point… 

[newtoleica]

6 minutes ago, mediumformula said:

I'm pretty content with my M11M and there isn't much I would change about it.  I think the most likely notable changes to a future M will be loss of mechanical shutter and IBIS.  I would be happy with IBIS if they can fit it in the same or smaller form factor M, but I'm not sure how I feel about losing the mechanical shutter.  Even if an all electronic shutter was technologically superior, I like feeling and hearing the sound of the shutter when I take a picture on an M.

Agree…. Also
a 24MP M sesnsor can be acceptably sharp with a 24mm if you’re careful at 1/8 sec. The M is very well damped and a good weight to hold steady. 

[evikne]

22 minutes ago, mediumformula said:

Even if an all electronic shutter was technologically superior, I like feeling and hearing the sound of the shutter when I take a picture on an M.

The haptic feedback on newer iPhones actually works very well. While there's no real movement when you press the home button or use the keyboard, it feels very natural. If Leica implemented something like this on the shutter button, maybe we wouldn't miss the mechanical shutter?

[lct]

I'm used to my electric stapler. Don't change anything please

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Multicoated said:

...all the M needed was the same lovely shutter to go at 1/8000 mechanical and forget electronic shutter...

The type of mechanical shutter required to fit in the M body cannot do 1/8000 sec.

The electronic shutter didn't change the sound of the M shutter, leave that out of the discussion. It was the full-time live view metering that changed the shutter character. Solution for that would be to allow dual-metering operation: like the M11 currently is, but also add back the old school meter that works independently with the rangefinder. With the latter, you will get the same function and sound of the shutter as you had with the M10-P/R.

Also, I don't need the electronic shutter just for 1/8000 sec., I also need (want to keep and appreciate) 1/16000 sec.

Edited August 21, 2023 by hdmesa

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[LBJ2]

55 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The type of mechanical shutter required to fit in the M body cannot do 1/8000 sec.

The electronic shutter didn't change the sound of the M shutter, leave that out of the discussion. It was the full-time live view metering that changed the shutter character. Solution for that would be to allow dual-metering operation: like the M11 currently is, but also add back the old school meter that works independently with the rangefinder. With the latter, you will get the same function and sound of the shutter as you had with the M10-P/R.

Also, I don't need the electronic shutter just for 1/8000 sec., I also need (want to keep and appreciate) 1/16000 sec.

Interesting. I didn't know about the speed constraints on the shutter used in the M11. The M10-M11 form factor is very thin, so seems logical. Where can read-up more on this? 

Also, as a fan of the Noct lens that begs to be used wide open--I'll happily take as much shutter speed as I can get, mechanical or electronic for a ND filter-free life! 

[hdmesa]

42 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Interesting. I didn't know about the speed constraints on the shutter used in the M11. The M10-M11 form factor is very thin, so seems logical. Where can read-up more on this?...

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/270790-14000-is-forever/?do=findComment&comment=3243092

 

42 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

...as a fan of the Noct lens that begs to be used wide open--I'll happily take as much shutter speed as I can get, mechanical or electronic for a ND filter-free life! 

Same!

Edited August 22, 2023 by hdmesa