Worth Jumping Into The S?

[benqui]

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Sorry to say that in a Leica forum, for sure the 007 is a beautiful camera, but it is an old camera. For this price you could also get a Fuji GFX 50S which is a modern medium format camera (if you are looking for the medium format look). To be honest I have given up looking for the medium format look since I was in Saudi Arabia with my Hassi X2D and the Q2. I made large prints (80x60 and 105x80) and to be honest, I did not see any breathtaking differences.  As a result I use theses cameras not because one is better than the other but only depending on my mood and my kind of photography.

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[davidmknoble]

5 hours ago, benqui said:

Sorry to say that in a Leica forum, for sure the 007 is a beautiful camera, but it is an old camera. For this price you could also get a Fuji GFX 50S which is a modern medium format camera (if you are looking for the medium format look). To be honest I have given up looking for the medium format look since I was in Saudi Arabia with my Hassi X2D and the Q2. I made large prints (80x60 and 105x80) and to be honest, I did not see any breathtaking differences.  As a result I use theses cameras not because one is better than the other but only depending on my mood and my kind of photography.

Newer technology is not always better.  Compared to the Fuji system, the S system is still incredibly water resistant (I’ve used in Iceland in pouring rain) and the sensor still draws really well, but the S lenses are incredible and as old as they are, still great workhorses.  However, the Hasselblad X2D is a medium format systems and is what I hope the S system migrates to.  I have the CFV II 50c that I use on old Hasselblad film cameras (500cxi e.g.) with old CF lenses.  However, I also have the 38 and 55v lenses.  I am strongly considering the X2D, but I am waiting for a reply from customer service on how well it performs in inclement weather.  What I really like about the CFV II 50c is the incredible color output in the Phocus app. It is clear that Hasselblad uses true 16 bit color rendition while others use 14 bit in a 16 bit container.  I have not been able to get color output like that even from the S3, albeit close.

The Q2 has a great sensor in it, but is also “old technology” as you put it.  The Q2 released in March 2019 while the S3 was introduced in March 2020.  So, to compare the Q2 as “not seeing breathtaking differences” from the X2D shows that older equipment can do well.  What I never liked about the Q2 was the limiting 28mm lens.  I prefer 45mm (35mm equivalent) lenses on the S system for landscape work, unless I need the 30 or 35 (24 and 28 equivalent).

The other thing appealing about the Hasselblad X2D system is that mirrorless shrunk the lens size. So, it becomes a medium format system that travels well whereas the S system is larger and harder to travel on a plane with.  I prefer to take it where I drive as opposed to flying, although I’ll fly domestically with it.  So, the S system is at the least expensive point in time (for now) to dive into the medium format quality with the drawback that the bodies are older and because they are digital, at some point will not be repairable, unlike manual 1950’s M3’s that shoot film.

IMHO of course.

[bags27]

14 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Newer technology is not always better.  Compared to the Fuji system, the S system is still incredibly water resistant (I’ve used in Iceland in pouring rain) and the sensor still draws really well, but the S lenses are incredible and as old as they are, still great workhorses.  However, the Hasselblad X2D is a medium format systems and is what I hope the S system migrates to.  I have the CFV II 50c that I use on old Hasselblad film cameras (500cxi e.g.) with old CF lenses.  However, I also have the 38 and 55v lenses.  I am strongly considering the X2D, but I am waiting for a reply from customer service on how well it performs in inclement weather.  What I really like about the CFV II 50c is the incredible color output in the Phocus app. It is clear that Hasselblad uses true 16 bit color rendition while others use 14 bit in a 16 bit container.  I have not been able to get color output like that even from the S3, albeit close.

The Q2 has a great sensor in it, but is also “old technology” as you put it.  The Q2 released in March 2019 while the S3 was introduced in March 2020.  So, to compare the Q2 as “not seeing breathtaking differences” from the X2D shows that older equipment can do well.  What I never liked about the Q2 was the limiting 28mm lens.  I prefer 45mm (35mm equivalent) lenses on the S system for landscape work, unless I need the 30 or 35 (24 and 28 equivalent).

The other thing appealing about the Hasselblad X2D system is that mirrorless shrunk the lens size. So, it becomes a medium format system that travels well whereas the S system is larger and harder to travel on a plane with.  I prefer to take it where I drive as opposed to flying, although I’ll fly domestically with it.  So, the S system is at the least expensive point in time (for now) to dive into the medium format quality with the drawback that the bodies are older and because they are digital, at some point will not be repairable, unlike manual 1950’s M3’s that shoot film.

IMHO of course.

I was about to buy the CFV Ii 50C last week to have a digital camera for travel and to pair with my 500 c/m and Zeiss glass. Then I heard enough rumors of a CFV II 100C to make me pause. I certainly don't care about the increased focus speed or the double # of mps. But the possibility of sensor stabilization is intriguing. Of course, it'll come in at $8k+. Do you miss Internal stabilization?

As to the X2D and weather resistance, my understanding, which is worth absolutely nothing but still doesn't prevent me from talking, is that HB (or rather DJI) is ducking that question. I've read reports of it being used in a steady rain without harm. But so long as DJI doesn't give it a rating, it has no liability.

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The S system is as obsolete as the GFX system at the moment, both desperately need a new camera.

How do you mean that exactly? The S is sold to a small group of professionals who aren't interested in having the latest fad features. They get paid for images, not for "AI squirrel detection." There will be a new Leica medium format system in a year or two, but that will be its own thing, with a different target market.

The GFX is supposedly due for a minor facelift, but I doubt it will introduce any big changes. How is it desperately obsolete? Is there a competitive product that isn't obsolete? I can only think of the X2D, which isn't very different.

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

As I said, obsolete. Ask any professional dealer why sales have stalled. As a GFX and Leica user I must say I agree. Hasselblad is flying off the shelves

I suspect that the next-gen medium format system from Leica will be similar to the X2D. More precisely, I imagine that it will be a slightly fatter SL: fast, with a great EVF, and still not too large.

The S system was originally designed for the professional market, but the next one should be more of an "advanced amateur" camera like the X2D and GFX. That's not to say that professionals can't use it, but it should offer modern convenience features like advanced AF and less bulk.

[davidmknoble]

23 hours ago, bags27 said:

I was about to buy the CFV Ii 50C last week to have a digital camera for travel and to pair with my 500 c/m and Zeiss glass. Then I heard enough rumors of a CFV II 100C to make me pause. I certainly don't care about the increased focus speed or the double # of mps. But the possibility of sensor stabilization is intriguing. Of course, it'll come in at $8k+. Do you miss Internal stabilization?

As to the X2D and weather resistance, my understanding, which is worth absolutely nothing but still doesn't prevent me from talking, is that HB (or rather DJI) is ducking that question. I've read reports of it being used in a steady rain without harm. But so long as DJI doesn't give it a rating, it has no liability.

I find the 50c perfectly fine, in part because I use a tripod for film in the 500cx anyway.  I like stabilisation, but use a tripod a lot so not a dealbreaker by any means.

Talked with Hasselblad customer service and they agree that humidity in the air is fine (like fog), but the weak point they said is the lens mount and that’s what you have to be careful of in rain or snow, etc.

That’s the hard part - waiting.  The X2D is very small compared to the Leica S, but I love the weather sealing of the Leica S and assume the S4 or whatever, will be small and weather proof.  Just have to wait!

I do disagree with @Al Brown that the S is obsolete.  Lack of sales does not mean obsolete, it could simply mean all the pros have one and dont need another.  I posted a photo above I took a week ago, the image is not close to obsolete and at 64mp is strong enough for any size needed.  The fact that it was an SLR instead of a Mirrorless is irrelevant.  When you shoot in a studio or heavy landsacpe, you use a tripod.  Size doesn’t matter.  I want small when I travel internationally, but I have that too.

[irenedp]

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I use 2 S, paired. The latest, an S3, I acquired at a very discounted price after selling a GFX 100. I did consider the Hasselblad but changing system meant acquiring a set of lenses which I already had for the S2. I wouldn’t be particularly interested, personally, in a mirrorless S -don’t need the IBIS nor the EVF-. Often times I don’t even use AF with them.  Above that I use the IQ4, which for part of the work I do offers huge advantages. But the bulk of my work is done with the Leica S

As David Knoble mentions above -just saw his post-, when I need lightness I have lighter equipment. The last circumstance, which is speed and focus accuracy -I still do a few events- is better served with a Nikon (and neither a GFX nor a Hasselblad could cover that adequately).  

Edited September 7, 2023 by irenedp

[markc2]

I'm coming from a Hasselblad 501cm and I love composing shots with that big beautiful waist level viewfinder, do any of you find major differences between the S vs the SL viewfinder, I loved the look and feel of the R8/9 but the viewfinder was so teeny, what is the viewfinder like in the S and the SL or do you guys use the screen in the back?

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

Edited November 11, 2023 by markc2

[Einst_Stein]

Recently I want a MF camera that is significantly faster in ISO than my HB C39 CCD digital back. I have a chance to take a photo project to earn a small fortune. I looked at S3 again and again, but then decided to get GFX100S due to about half of the price of S3. I also get a GFX-C645 adapter, both are from B&H. 

In two days, I burnt my C645 45-90mm lens. I actually sort of knew it mighty happen, since I had similar experience with Sony A7xx with Contax N to Sony adapter. But I heard the adapter had adopted a better design that had fixed the problem.  I thought it should be fine. But the reality is till not favorable.  I returned both GFX100S and GFX C645 adapter. and I ordered a S3 from MPB.

S3 does not have IB shake reduction, the MP is lower (64MP vs. 100MP), and is heavier. But I am much more happier. The most obvious are the AF and IQ.  GFX always hunts back and forth (rapidly) before settling the right focus, while S3 almost always makes in the first try. It is about 10 to 1 in the number of hunting from GFX to S3.  (This is with Contax 645 lenses, it might be different if using GFX native lens.) , IQ wise, Leica's color rendition is far more preferable, to me personal. 

I am sort of glad GFX burnt my C645 lens, otherwise I might not know the advantages of S3.     

[Eclectic Man]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:52 PM, Al Brown said:

The S system is as obsolete as the GFX system at the moment, both desperately need a new camera.

It depends on what you want in a camera.  Chamonix still make new sheet film cameras from 4x5 up to over 8x10.  I bought an Intrepid Cameras 4x5 Mk4 camera a few years ago and really like it, and the new plastic Chamonix film holders with the locking mechanism (red button) are excellent and work with it.

https://www.chamonixviewcameras.eu 

[Jeff S]

16 hours ago, markc2 said:

 do any of you find major differences between the S vs the SL viewfinder

 

 

More like “all of you,” I suspect, as the former is a big, beautiful OVF, while the latter was state of the art EVF when first released (and still first class). Leica has always prioritized viewing systems - how one sees the subject.  These cameras provide examples of two very different approaches.

Jeff

[Einst_Stein]

28 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

More like “all of you,” I suspect, as the former is a big, beautiful OVF, while the latter was state of the art EVF when first released (and still first class). Leica has always prioritized viewing systems - how one sees the subject.  These cameras provide examples of two very different approaches.

Jeff

The difference is much more than “major”, whatever it means to you.

OVF makes me feel much more connected to the object, It is not just the response time, or mps, or color. However, EVF has advantage of what you see is what you get, I can get EVF from S3 using live view, but the operation is different. 

And, as Leica advertised S, the OVF is less battery hungry. I can have just 1 battery for a full day.

[markc2]

I think for the last couple months or so, some of the camera's  I've been looking at X1D, M8, M240, SL, and S006. It's funny the X1D is marketed as MF and the Leica S is kind of not, and when I look at the sensor size of the two x1d= 44 x 33 mm and Leica S006 30 x 45mm to me those are pretty close, I've gotten to use the M240, and the SL2, the SL2 while having a beautiful EVF, if anyone has ever watched Ready Player One, they are talking about putting adds in the VR experience and they talk about being able to fill up x% of the screen before inducing seizure, the SL2 felt like that to me. The amount of information on that screen in graphics and numbers was mind boggling,

Someone said to the effect these are all excellent cameras and I think that's why I'm having such a hard time choosing. I want a camera that I can feel good about leaving my 501cm home from time to time. What's hilarious and frustrating, is just about when I think I've picked one and about to buy, I look on these forums and am like well, maybe this one instead.

After shooting the 501cm for so long, the Leica S would be SO modern the SL and X1d would be so ultra modern, the M series more sneaky modernish, so compact with teeny lenses and such variety, SL a true jack of all trades, You got a lens you want to use the SL will oblige and use it most excellent. I hope to try an S or X1D in the real world pretty soon. The S seems to be old school mixed with modern. I worry maybe for no reason, but the more you put in, the more there is to fail. EVF, Image Stabilization, AF, all things that can fail, but that's me being that my 501cm hasn't even hiccuped yet, and the R8 was rock solid, and my R3 even being so old still worked after getting it's light seals fixed.

Ah, anyone else want the soapbox? Thanks 🙂

Mark

[Eclectic Man]

2 hours ago, markc2 said:

...  just about when I think I've picked one and about to buy, I look on these forums and am like well, maybe this one instead... 

Ah, anyone else want the soapbox? Thanks 🙂

Mark

Hello, Mark,

A problem with reading any review of a camera is that while many are written by professionals who have genuine technical skill in photography, many are written by amateurs or varying degrees of ability.  Another problem is that we all have different requirements for a camera system, some of which are infeasible (a small lightweight camera with the definition of an 8x10 field camera, perfectly sharp and rectilinear-correct lenses form 14mm to 1000mm and 16 stops Dynamic Range).  One review I read of a Hasselblad H system complained the lenses were not that sharp, well, I have to say that another photographer, using just Hasselblad lenses, took and phished some excellent, sharp images, so one can only assume the reviewer's technique was not that good

So reading reviews is all very well and good, but think about who will be carrying it, who will be using it, where you will actually be using it (rather than fantasy), and why you want one.  Do you actually need the 'best' camera and lenses, or are you someone who likes owning the 'best' equipment (there are a lot of us around)?  Is it a tool for making photographs, or a Ferrari sports car, mostly for show, but delightful to play with?  If you are used to a 501cm then you are used to taking your time with composition, metering and thinking about your photographs, and not a 'point-and-shoot' merchant.

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, markc2 said:

It's funny the X1D is marketed as MF and the Leica S is kind of not,

Sure it is… first paragraph from the Leica site….

The Leica S-System is a synthesis of impressive imaging quality, the unique visual signature of medium format photography and the versatility of a 35mm camera. With these features, it unites the best of both worlds, defining a unique class of its own.
 

Similar marketing spin from Hasselblad…

 Lightweight and portable, the X1D II 50C lets you take the power of medium format in a footprint smaller than most full-frame 35mm cameras.

Jeff

Edited December 2, 2023 by Jeff S

[markc2]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Sure it is… first paragraph from the Leica site….

The Leica S-System is a synthesis of impressive imaging quality, the unique visual signature of medium format photography and the versatility of a 35mm camera. With these features, it unites the best of both worlds, defining a unique class of its own.
 

Similar marketing spin from Hasselblad…

 Lightweight and portable, the X1D II 50C lets you take the power of medium format in a footprint smaller than most full-frame 35mm cameras.

Jeff

They led with "is a synthesis" and ended with "a unique class of its own". That's why I threw in kind of, that was my loophole as well :-)

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, markc2 said:

They led with "is a synthesis" and ended with "a unique class of its own". That's why I threw in kind of, that was my loophole as well 🙂

Just means combination (synthesis) of MF IQ and compactness of 35mm.  Not unique given almost identical Hasselblad marketing. If Leica is “kind of,” so is Hassy.  And compared to film size MF, some would consider digital MF sensor size less than “kind of”… but that’s another discussion.

Jeff

[markc2]

3 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Just means combination (synthesis) of MF IQ and compactness of 35mm.  Not unique given almost identical Hasselblad marketing. If Leica is “kind of,” so is Hassy.  And compared to film size MF, some would consider digital MF sensor size less than “kind of”… but that’s another discussion.

Jeff

If Leica is “kind of,” so is Hassy

I think your statement is perfect on this.

Edited December 2, 2023 by markc2

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[Einst_Stein]

My oldest digital technology is Digilux 4.3, a 1MP camera, which recorded on floppy disk, and was made by Fujifilm. 
“old”  or “obsolete” technology camera depends most likely on the competent or incompetent of the holder. 

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[Stuart Richardson]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:00 PM, markc2 said:

 the SL2 while having a beautiful EVF, if anyone has ever watched Ready Player One, they are talking about putting adds in the VR experience and they talk about being able to fill up x% of the screen before inducing seizure, the SL2 felt like that to me. The amount of information on that screen in graphics and numbers was mind boggling,

 

I have not watched Ready Player One, but it does sound to me like you missed an opportunity here. If you press the Fn button it will cycle through degrees of data in the viewfinder. You can make it so there is essentially nothing in the way, a light amount of information on just the bottom row of the VF, or the full monty, which could include a grid, artificial horizon, all the modes and info etc. I typically use the middle option, which is very similar to the information that the S provides in the digital menu under the ovf.