M2 Rewind Question

[logan2z]

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I recently acquired an M2 that was fully overhauled by Leica Wetzlar.  This is my first M film camera with the removable takeup spool and I'm curious what other M2 (or M3) owners have to say about the force required to free the film from the takeup spool during rewind.  In my case, it takes quite a bit of force - more than I would expect. I ask because I've been seeing some unexplained 'exposure' at the start of rolls shot with this camera and I'm wondering if they could be caused by excessive stress on the film at the point where the film is being pulled free of the takeup spool. 

[Mute-on]

Yes, it takes a decent amount of force to free the leader from the spool. Consider the force required to feed the film leader INTO the spool. It’s a very decent shove to get it in there and perfectly aligned (flat against the spool end flange). I’ve never had film tear pulling it out of the spool. Just make sure the rewind lever is fully disengaged (horizontal). It will click into place with a gentle but firm push. 

[250swb]

The film is supposed to fit tightly in the tab of the take up spool. I think if anything is going to show the sort of stretching symptoms you refer to it will be only the leader anyway, assuming you aren't loading your own cassettes with short leaders.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Mute-on said:

Yes, it takes a decent amount of force to free the leader from the spool. Consider the force required to feed the film leader INTO the spool. It’s a very decent shove to get it in there and perfectly aligned (flat against the spool end flange). I’ve never had film tear pulling it out of the spool. Just make sure the rewind lever is fully disengaged (horizontal). It will click into place with a gentle but firm push. 

Thanks.  I definitely fully engage the rewind lever before rewinding - rewinding the film doesn't take much force at all up until the point that the leader is being pulled off the spool. 

[spydrxx]

I had to think about your question and wondered if you were talking about extraction of the film leader from the spool, or merely rewinding the film into the cartridge. So I pulled out my M2 and put in my standby sacrificial roll, took a few "shots" and then rewound including removing the leader from its spool. It confirmed my experience that no special force was needed to either rewind or remove the leader from the spool. It felt to me like most film bodies I own (non-Leica) as well as Barnack bodies. Perhaps yours just needs a little exercise to operate smoothly and without extra force.

[logan2z]

11 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

I had to think about your question and wondered if you were talking about extraction of the film leader from the spool, or merely rewinding the film into the cartridge. So I pulled out my M2 and put in my standby sacrificial roll, took a few "shots" and then rewound including removing the leader from its spool. It confirmed my experience that no special force was needed to either rewind orremove the leader from the spool. It felt to me like most film bodies I own (non-Leica) as well as Barnack bodies. Perhaps yours just needs a little exercise to operate smoothly and without extra force.

Sorry if I was unclear.  Rewinding the film doesn't require any special force, but that last turn of the rewind knob to free the leader from the spool definitely does - quite a bit more than my M-A and M4 (both with the quick load system, of course) and my non-Leica film cameras.  

[Aryel]

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Yes, it sounds normal: you can test it out outside the camera…

It depends on your taking spool too, some are tighter than others (due to age etc…). 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Aryel

[250swb]

I think the tighter spools are likely to be fresher, so closer to the original Leica spec. I’m sure people have prised apart the spring to load the film quicker but it’s false economy if it doesn’t grab first time.

[earleygallery]

5 hours ago, logan2z said:

Sorry if I was unclear.  Rewinding the film doesn't require any special force, but that last turn of the rewind knob to free the leader from the spool definitely does - quite a bit more than my M-A and M4 (both with the quick load system, of course) and my non-Leica film cameras.  

Once you get to that point STOP! Open the camera and remove the film (cartdrige and spool). Pull film free.

 

[TomB_tx]

21 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Once you get to that point STOP! Open the camera and remove the film (cartdrige and spool). Pull film free.

 

Disagree. For over 50 years I've always rewound the film completely into the cassette. Feeling the film release form the take-up spool lets you know when you are finished. Of course, that was before minilabs where they extracted the film through the cassette slit. Back then normal was to go to the dark room, pry off an end of the cassette and remove the full spool - which is how I still do it.

[logan2z]

54 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

Disagree. For over 50 years I've always rewound the film completely into the cassette. Feeling the film release form the take-up spool lets you know when you are finished. Of course, that was before minilabs where they extracted the film through the cassette slit. Back then normal was to go to the dark room, pry off an end of the cassette and remove the full spool - which is how I still do it.

I do leave the film leader out when rewinding film.  It simplifies trimming the leader before loading it onto a developing reel and I find it easier to load the film onto the reel directly from the cassette, rather than dealing with a bunch of loose/coiled film in the changing bag. 

I might give @earleygallery's idea a try and stop rewinding when I feel that the leader is ready to come off the takeup spool, although I'm not sure that this is the cause of the issue that I'm currently facing with a fogged frame at the beginning of the roll.

[earleygallery]

The fogged first frame sounds to me like you're not winding on enough after first loading the film. Could you post an example showing the whole piece of film?

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

The fogged first frame sounds to me like you're not winding on enough after first loading the film. Could you post an example showing the whole piece of film?

I guess anything is possible, although I've loaded tons of film in this and other Leicas, NIkons, Pentaxes, etc and have never had this problem.

Here's a photo of the film strip hanging to dry - I don't have a photo of the entire film strip at the moment but could shoot one later.  For reference, the leader is towards the bottom of this image.

I examined the rest of the film strip with a flashlight while it dried and don't see any other obvious signs of a leak.   I'll look at it more closely on the light table later and then scan it.  But if this roll is like a previous roll that also showed something similar, only the beginning of the roll is affected by whatever is causing this.

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Edited August 14, 2023 by logan2z

[madNbad]

I posted some questions on Photrio but I’ll ask here, too. Is your M2 a lever or button rewind? It seems that it may not be engaging soon enough, causing the film to slip and not releasing fully at the end of the roll, causing the film to stay taut, making the last bit of rewinding difficult. 

[250swb]

9 hours ago, logan2z said:

I do leave the film leader out when rewinding film.  It simplifies trimming the leader before loading it onto a developing reel and I find it easier to load the film onto the reel directly from the cassette, rather than dealing with a bunch of loose/coiled film in the changing bag. 
 

Two things, dragging the film through the felt of the light trap more times than necessary can lead to scratches if you get any grit caught in there, and if light can go through the film it can also travel along the film by something called 'light piping'.

https://filmphotographyproject.com/light-piping-prevent/#:~:text=Light piping is unwanted light,up spool in your camera.

Only you know if this last thing was possible in your case.

[logan2z]

3 hours ago, madNbad said:

I posted some questions on Photrio but I’ll ask here, too. Is your M2 a lever or button rewind? It seems that it may not be engaging soon enough, causing the film to slip and not releasing fully at the end of the roll, causing the film to stay taut, making the last bit of rewinding difficult. 

It's a lever rewind.  I'll watch closely for evidence of this with the next roll I put through the camera.

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

Two things, dragging the film through the felt of the light trap more times than necessary can lead to scratches if you get any grit caught in there, and if light can go through the film it can also travel along the film by something called 'light piping'.

https://filmphotographyproject.com/light-piping-prevent/#:~:text=Light piping is unwanted light,up spool in your camera.

Only you know if this last thing was possible in your case.

Thanks, I'm aware of both possibilities.  However, I do this for every roll I develop and I've never had a scratched negative, although maybe I've just been lucky.  And I feel like I'm more likely to damage the film from kinking when it's all twisted up in the changing after being pulled completely out of the cassette.  In terms of light piping, I thought that was much more common for polyester-based films.  And if this were the cause of my problem, I'd think that it would happen with other cameras too, not just my M2.  But I've never seen this happen with any of the other 35mm cameras I own.   That said, the pictures in the linked article do look an awful lot like the one I posted above 🤔

Edited August 15, 2023 by logan2z

[TomB_tx]

3 hours ago, logan2z said:

And I feel like I'm more likely to damage the film from kinking when it's all twisted up in the changing after being pulled completely out of the cassette.

I don't let the film unspool - hold the ends of the spool at the palm of my left hand while the fingers guide it onto the stainless reel, Been doing that since the 1960s whether in darkroom or changing bag.