The wide angle issue

[Peter Branch]

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OK – one year on from the release of the M8 and we have a set of 4 new Summarit lenses about to go on general sale. All the reports suggest that they are, in Leica world terms, very good value for money and perform only just below the standards set by the much more expensive premium lenses. There are also rumours of a new Noctilux, which seem credible given that the performance of the existing design falls well short of current standards, particularly when used on the M8.

 

All this activity, real or postulated, is with focal lengths from 35mm and longer. The problem for M8 users is, I submit, 35mm and shorter. The WATE was launched with the M8, so Leica claim to have covered the needs of users for wide angles of view, but it is hardly an elegant solution. Many of us don’t want or need an f/4, variable focal length zoom and the current cost, when combined with the associated viewfinder, puts it in the super luxury division.

 

Prior to the launch of the M8 I, and many others, had repeatedly asked Leica to introduce an 18mm lens. (It’s the one that enables you to photograph a courtyard because it has a 90 degree angle of view on the long side of a 35mm film frame.) Today I would still buy a prime lens with a focal length of 18mm, preferably f/2.8, for my M8, provided it was around £2k rather than the £3k + of the WATE.

 

What do others think and what do we have to do to get action on this?

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[stunsworth]

Peter, I'm sure Leica have thought the same, and I'd expect a 18mm (or 16mm) lens before too long. Especially since 16mm would give the same angle of view as a 21mm on a film M.

 

As for speed, I'd like f2.8, but after seeing the size of the Zeiss 15mm I think I'd settle of f3.5, or even at a pinch f4 <grin>.

[wattsy]

All this activity, real or postulated, is with focal lengths from 35mm and longer. The problem for M8 users is, I submit, 35mm and shorter.

 

To be fair, Leica did also introduce the reasonably priced (in Leica terms) 28mm Elmarit around the same time as the M8 so the classic '35mm' FOV was provided for.

 

I agree that the 16-18-21 zoom lens is a very inelegant solution to the requirement for something at the very wide end. To the extent that CV can produce a perfectly usable 15mm/F4.5 for a couple of hundred quid (albeit with non-German labour costs), it is hard to imagine that Leica cannot come up with something like a 16mm/F3.4 for £2k. As I tend to use a superwide only for architectural interiors and classic landscape shots - both using a tripod - I'd be happier still with a nice sharp, distortion free, 16mm/F4.5 for around £1200.

[luigi bertolotti]

I agree with Steve... I'd bet by sure they have in plan something around 16-18 with no spectacular luminosity (3,5 to 4,5) and "Summarit-style-pricing": I sometime speculate that they could even do it at 14mm for marketing reasons... ; for me, I have chosen to don't wait, and just bought a (used mint) CV 15... .

 

To the other "extreme" ... many of us would welcome also a 135 (120 ?) with a compact goggle system styled like tha Macro 90 unit...

[tom0511]

I am pretty happy with the 16-18-21.

A F2.8 would be nice though. However if I see the price and size of the zeiss 15/2.8 - just too muc for me.

So for the M8 a 16/2.8 "dx" lens would make sense.

But I think Leica will got for full frame in a long term so they wont bring such a 16/2.8 "dx" lens.

Maybe they will offer a 18mm/3.5 for a lower price than the WATE, but on the other side the flexibility of the wate (16-18-21) I do really like. As a 30% lens it was affordable IMO.

Cheers, Tom

[andreas_thomsen]

i bought the Zeiss 18 Distagon lens due to the point leica isn't in the wide angle league at the moment (the wate is for me not an usable M lens). i guess leica will loose a lot of sales in this segment in the near future. and honestly the zeiss lens is very well build.

cheers

andreas

[marknorton]

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I agree that the Leica M range is light at the wide-angle end. Just 3 lenses wider than 28mm (which on an M8 is not that wide anyway) and all of them expensive. For M8 users, there's a need for some f4 lenses and primes wider than 21mm.

 

The WATE is an interesting lens, but has poor usability, and I think many of us would have preferred to see a single wide prime such as a 16mm Elmarit.

 

As for DX lenses, much depends on whether FF will feature in the Leica M's future. I have 4 Nikon DX lenses which, as I move to Nikon FF, I'm regretting because they turn the D3 into a 5MP camera, so I do not think I would buy any Leica lens for a 1.33 crop factor in case a future M turns out to be FF.

[jaapv]

I would be highly surprised if this was not a very high priority with Leica. Let's wait and see what the Photokina brings next year....

[marknorton]

Jaap, when you say "this" is a high priority, do you mean an FF camera or additional wide-angle primes?

[tom0511]

 

The WATE is an interesting lens, but has poor usability, and I think many of us would have preferred to see a single wide prime such as a 16mm Elmarit.

 

What do you mean with this?

I think the wate has better usability than a prime. Changing the option in the menue for the vignetting is still faster (and cleaner) than changing a lens. The size of the lens is not bad at all (if you use a Milich adapter for the IR filter). Its rangefinder coupled (compared to the CV and ZEISS 15mm).

 

I agre that it is expensive (if you would only need 1 of the three focal lengths) but usability is great IMO.

Cheers, Tom

[lars_bergquist]

To most of us, a 'superwide' lens is for occasional use. This means that it (and its finder) should be compact, easy to use and not exorbitantly expensive. The WATE fails on all counts, and the present leaders of the Leica business are surely aware of this; the WATE is very much a 'legacy lens'. I do expect them to correct this fairly soon.

 

The real problem is the 21mm length. This, on the M8, is a moderate wide angle lens, equivalent to 28mm. This is not an 'occasional' length but very much a workhorse one. And while the present offering is good, and adequately fast, it is also very expensive. There seems to be no way out of this dilemma. But the Leica folks may well be holding their breath, waiting for a full frame M camera to blow away all wide angle woes. Can it really be that close?

 

The old man from the Age of Roll Film

[wparsonsgisnet]

I currrently own the CV15, which is only adequate as a lens in comparison with a Leica lens. If you look at images from this lens and from the WATE, you can see that the WATE is a superior lens.

 

However, it is a zoom lens. We know that a prime lens will produce better images than a zoom.

 

I'd like to see Leica make something (FAST) in the 15mm area. There is a 15mm R-lens at f2.8. Should be a piece of cake for the gnomes from Solms.

[stunsworth]

I think the problem with a fast 15/16 is likely to be the size of the thing, and how much of the viewfinder it obscures. Also the current 15mm R lens costs arround £4500 in the UK - that's about $9200. A higher price than many of us are prepared to pay <grin>.

 

Isn't the 15 made by a third party?

[jaapv]

Jaap, when you say "this" is a high priority, do you mean an FF camera or additional wide-angle primes?

The lens, I fear,,, A FF camera seems more of a pipedream at the present day.

[woodyspedden]

I think the problem with a fast 15/16 is likely to be the size of the thing, and how much of the viewfinder it obscures. Also the current 15mm R lens costs arround £4500 in the UK - that's about $9200. A higher price than many of us are prepared to pay <grin>.

 

Isn't the 15 made by a third party?

 

The R 15 is a Schneider design but built, I believe by Leica

 

woody spedden

[marknorton]

Interesting, I thought it was a Schneider design, built by them to look like a Leica lens. Still expensive, however you look at it.

[ohnri]

The WATE is an amazingly functional and veratile lens. Useability is excellent, the image quality is superb and the finder includes a handy spirit bubble.

 

With both coupled rangefinder focusing and a range of focal lengths there is no other really wide lens for the M8 that comes close in terms of either real world ease of use or versatility.

 

My only complaint is that the 1.3x mag factor makes my sweet 16mm super-wide into a moderate wide at 21mm.

 

Best,

 

Bill

[carstenw]

IIRC, the Leica 15mm f/3.4 was a Schneider design, but the 15mm f/2.8 was optimised and designed by Leica.

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[luigi bertolotti]

I'd bet 250 Euros they'll NOT make a FF RF Leica in the next 3 years... I think more of bigger sensors if they'll make something in the DSLR line... a traditional FF or an astonishing square 36x36 in the range of 25 MP... R lenses compatible...

[henning]

IIRC, the Leica 15mm f/3.4 was a Schneider design, but the 15mm f/2.8 was optimised and designed by Leica.

 

I believe the 15/3.5 was based on a Zeiss design, as were the other 15/3.5 lenses that came out in the same time frame, namely the 15/3.5 Nikkor and Pentax lenses, and of course the Zeiss.

 

The 15/2.8 is a Schneider designed and built lens, as is the 28 Super Angulon PC.

 

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Dr. Kaufmann said that Leica would be announcing 24 new lenses 'in the next year'. Among those are presumably the Summarits, even though he said this at the LHSA meeting in Rochester. Also, many of those lenses would be new or redesigned lenses for the R10 with its larger than 24x36 sensor. Another would be the new Noctilux f/0.9 or so, and then he did indicate that there would be new wideangle M lenses. He also said that some lenses would be premium lenses (and the new Noctilux would surely fall in that category) and some would be lower priced lenses. How the new wideangle lenses would fall in this hierarchy wasn't stated or hinted, but my suspicions are that there would possibly be extreme wide/faster lens(es) in the premium range, and possibly one less extreme wideangle in the more affordable range. This latter stuff should be treated as rumour only.

 

Henning