Any Banding Reported with S007 or S3?

[davidmknoble]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

There was a lot of discussion and long resolution to some S006 banding with some that had sensors replaced from corrosion.  I was curious if anyone ever had banding issues with the S007 or S3 (obviously different sensors, but still electronic boards)?  Maybe the insulation from the electronic system interferes less with sensor voltage and reading.

Anyway, just curious, I have not had that problem.

[irenedp]

Not with the S3, nor with the S2. Obviously the older one creates quite some noise when raising shadows, but I have not seen banding.

[Stuart Richardson]

I definitely had major issues with banding in the S3, which is the main reason I sold it. Not just in lifted shadows at base ISO, but also at higher ISOs. Leica told me I was pushing the camera too hard and that the sensor was in spec. I tried other S3's and found the same problem. If you push the shadows hard there is a lot of banding and also a lot of magenta contamination and pixel noise. Adobe's profile tries to correct this by desaturating the shadows, which helps solve the magenta issue, but does not solve the problem of banding or pixel noise. I am attaching two screenshots. One is of the 100% detail of a very underexposed landscape shot at 100%. I lifted the shadows 2 stops and 50 on the shadow slider, I believe. But still, this is base ISO!

The other photo is a comparison of the S3 vs the SL2 (not famed for high ISO) both at ISO 50,000. Both are sized to 25% so there is no grain aliasing differences. Note how the SL2 is a bit grainier, but has no banding and true black shadows. The S3 has severe magenta contamination and noticeable banding. Both are 0 sharpening, 0 luminance nr and 10 color NR.

These are extreme examples, but I noticed the problems creeping up subtly in a lot of my photos. I think the S3 has a ton of range in the highlights, but the shadows are quite bad in comparison to other more modern cameras I have used. I am used to slide film and exposing to protect the highlights, so the camera worked the opposite of what I am used to. It was not a good fit. I think if you stick to reasonable ISOs and don't push around the files, it is fine, but it was definitely not what I expected after the S006, let alone the SL2.

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited July 20, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[mgrayson3]

Stuart,

I think you had a bad copy.

OTOH, blown highlights are gone. Dark shadows are merely noisy if lifted. I prefer the headroom.

Here's a tight crop.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Here's lifted 5 stops. The blurry object is a chair with a seat cushion, so the wide fuzzy bands are real.

 

 

This doesn't bother me at all. Two stops of overexposure will destroy most digital images. But I never underexpose by 5 stops unless it's user error. But then, I believe that dark shadows should stay dark.

Matt

Edited July 21, 2023 by mgrayson3

[mgrayson3]

In fairness, I just did the same experiment with the X2D, and it handles lifted shadows better.

Original (had to get Soup in here). And I did underexpose by 1 stop.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Top left corner

Lifted 5 stops

Less pattern in the noise than the S3.

Matt

Edited July 21, 2023 by mgrayson3

[Stuart Richardson]

17 hours ago, mgrayson3 said:

Stuart,

I think you had a bad copy.

 

Perhaps, but like I said, I was in dialog with Leica for several months about this sending files back and forth and when I tried it on other S3s files I had access to, they showed similar issues. Leica said that the camera was fine, and essentially it was my fault. Frankly, that pissed me off, as I felt like I was being gaslit. I sent the files to other professional photographers and they said that it would be unacceptable to them  as well. So I cannot say if there are better copies of the S3 out there, but I know that at least mine and the ones I tested definitely do have banding, not just when pushed, but at the higher ISOs without any pushing. Meanwhile, my SL2 is remarkably clean and well behaved in this regard. I lost thousands of dollars on that camera which I bought new in good faith after being an S shooter for 8 years, and I don't want anyone else to fall into that trap unless they have their eyes wide open.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[mgrayson3]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Perhaps, but like I said, I was in dialog with Leica for several months about this sending files back and forth and when I tried it on other S3s files I had access to, they showed similar issues. Leica said that the camera was fine, and essentially it was my fault. Frankly, that pissed me off, as I felt like I was being gaslit. I sent the files to other professional photographers and they said that it would be unacceptable to them  as well. So I cannot say if there are better copies of the S3 out there, but I know that at least mine and the ones I tested definitely do have banding, not just when pushed, but at the higher ISOs without any pushing. Meanwhile, my SL2 is remarkably clean and well behaved in this regard. I lost thousands of dollars on that camera which I bought new in good faith after being an S shooter for 8 years, and I don't want anyone else to fall into that trap unless they have their eyes wide open.

Stuart,

I'm not doubting you. Your equipment has to satisfy your needs or it is a waste. I'm doing these tests not to show that you are wrong, but to see if the results satisfy my needs. I just tried some ISO 6400 shots and see no pattern to the noise, even in shadows. I am either lucky or have low standards (which is much the same thing).

Recently, I'be been using the X2D more, although the results are not, IMHO, superior to the S3 with S lenses, and certainly not when the electronic shutter is needed.

Best,

Matt

[Stuart Richardson]

Thanks Matt. I should also note that the S3 seems to be a dual gain sensor, and I think because of that it behaves a bit unexpectedly. For example, I found more banding in pushed shadows at ISO 100 than I did at 400 or 800, if I recall (it has been a year or more since I tested). There was a point around base ISO where the banding was worse than it was at moderate ISOs. By the very high ISOs, it was bad again. I also did find that the S3 did better in long exposures at night than the SL2. So I think the problems I had with the S3 were probably less related to the general qualities of the sensor, but perhaps to some sort of calibration error or something with the noise floor. As I mentioned, the SL2 or the Panasonic S1 were really clean sensors, in my experience. Even if you push them hard, they might get grainy, but it is primarily randomized noise. The SL2 gets a tiny bit of banding at very high ISOs, but the issue is more grain than banding or color contamination. With some other sensors, like the first and second generation Sony A7 series which I used (A7s and A7Rii), the M10 or the S3, their sensors looked like they had "dirtier" noise floors. More color contamination when pushed, more bright corners (in the A7 series...kind of like reverse vignetting), and more banding. I have seen this because I do a lot of work at night, as half the year here is very dark.

In any case, I just had high hopes for the S3 and they were crushed in basically every way. I had problems with the focusing screen calibration, I strongly disliked the new color palette compared to the S006 and SL2 and I found that the character of the detail was kind of crunchy and nasty in comparison to the SL2 or S006. Basically I regretted it within days, but Leica convinced me to stick with it and let them sort out the problems. Six months later they pronounced it fine, and when I asked to return it they said, "no, you have had it too long." If it were not for the phenomenal SL2 and lenses, with which I have not had a single problem, I think I would be gone from Leica altogether. I know there are a lot of satisfied users, but I would urge urge urge people to try the camera in person first and truly put it through its paces before you commit. I could not do that because there was no Leica dealer here and I was offered it during the middle of the pandemic. I sincerely just don't want people to get burned like I did.

[mgrayson3]

20 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I would urge urge people to try the camera in person first and truly put it through its paces before you commit. 

The single best piece of advice concerning equipment. I'm glad the SL2 works for you. Other people I know who use it love it.

 

[davidmknoble]

Thanks @Stuart Richardson and @mgrayson3 for your examples.  I have not used the S006, but have used the S007 since 2018.  I have seen some magenta casts in my work and agree the shadows seemed not as malleable as the S007, but on the other hand, using capture one, I love the colors out of the box for the S3 (most of the time).

However, I also shoot slightly longer exposures (say 1/4 second to 2 minutes) and I use graduated ND filters (the ocean is a perfect place to use those). So, I have less shadows that need raising.  Based on what you said, I do think it worth the time to experiment with 100, 200, 400 ISO’s and see the difference in the shadows on the same image.

I also typically do not use the really high ISO’s on the S system.  

Matt, I have the CFV 50c that I use with X lenses and my film Hasselblads, and was thinking about the X2D.  I use old CF lenses, but just picked up the 38 and 55v lenses to try.  Seems like Hasselblad is trying to fill a gaap in the Leica S system (mirrorless and IBIS).

Stuart, did you unload your entire S system or do you use any of your S lenses on the SL2?

Still interested in any other user’s views…

Edited July 23, 2023 by davidmknoble
clarify

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

Thanks @Stuart Richardson and @mgrayson3 for your examples.  I have not used the S006, but have used the S007 since 2018.  I have seen some magenta casts in my work and agree the shadows seemed not as malleable as the S007, but on the other hand, using capture one, I love the colors out of the box for the S3 (most of the time).

-----

Stuart, did you unload your entire S system or do you use any of your S lenses on the SL2?

----

I traded in the S006 when I got the S3, so I no longer have an S body. I sold the 30-90 zoom, which I was not a fan of. I have kept everything else. I have kept them around because the resale values are so low, and they are phenomenal lenses. I am waiting to see if there is an S4 and if it works for me. That said, I am not really using them much these days. Since I switched to the L mount, the native lenses are better for my work, as they are sharper and freer from CA, but they are also so much smaller and lighter, especially when you add in the adapter. I was using the 120mm and 180mm as telephotos, but I stopped after buying a used 90-280 and a Sigma 105 macro. Right now I am probably living in the sunken cost fallacy, but assuming there is a new S body, they could come in handy. They may also gain some value if the new camera can draw in more users. I also think they are good for video on the SL, as their look is very cinematic and they are easier to manual focus.

[ZHNL]

Now days,  when I travel, I bring M and SL. If not traveling, I do very minimal photography, so I pick S (006) much more often than any other system because it brings me more enjoyment and I love edit it’s files. (Adobe’s latest noise AI just made iso800 looks like iso200. ) My favorite system after all these years is still S. 

I do complain S system current status, however, Leica created a modern classic at 2008 and none of their offer exceed the significance  of S2 IMHO. I don’t feel any offer digital systems age this gracefully. 

I bought and sold SL summicron because I don’t really see the specialness compare to other manufactures’ modern offering. (Personal preference ) I can’t tell difference if I am not looking at pixel at corner at large aperture and I don’t have enough user case(maybe zero) to justify that small difference as those are not important for me.

S is in another league as whole package,(OVF, simple menu, rendering, frame coverage, manual focus, sharpness) plus contax 80/120, Hasselblad 80/110, I have everything I want for a camera system. Just patiently wait for S4 for landscape and traveling or cares demand technical perfection. S lenses are more than fine for those and they have real focus ring offering gorgeous coverage. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by ZHNL