Manual inversion methods for scanned negatives

[LocalHero1953]

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I have made a few comparisons between different processes: the workflow I outlined in my first post, inversion with Grain2Pixel (a free Photoshop plugin) and Negative Lap Pro. I have downloaded C1 for a trial, but haven't yet succeeded in getting it run on my Windows desktop (I suspect a security/notifications issue).

But first the image that lead to this thread. I made the mistake of converting to a tiff before adjusting the RGB curves, which severely curtails the ability to adjust colour, saturation etc thereafter. I also notice that I had forgotten to zero LR's default sharpening before converting to tiff, which degrades the image. And you can see that in this version I had cloned out an irritating pamphlet on the left door post.

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Now version processed in LR according to my first post, with the difference that I took the initial WB from the woman's shirt (and teeth), not the film base. Sharpening set to zero. Brightness, contrast etc adjusted to taste.

Edited July 21, 2023 by LocalHero1953

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[LocalHero1953]

Now a version using Grain2Pixel. I understand that G2P is a raw converter that bypasses ACR. I have not spent much time exploring it, but I believe it can batch process images. It's a reasonably good inversion for colours.

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And here is Negative Lab Pro's version. Not so good colours and tone IMO, and I find it difficult to make further adjustments to colour.
NB NLP asks you to start by taking a WB from the film base - which may account for the less satisfactory colours.

[jaapv]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:21 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

There is clearly something happening in the interaction between the saturation sliders and the colour tone curves that I haven't worked out yet. 

This is caused by working in RGB. RGB values control both colour and luminosity, so you are changing both at the same time. The only way to avoid this is working in L*A*B* where luminosity and colour channels are decoupled.

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

This is caused by working in RGB. RGB values control both colour and luminosity, so you are changing both at the same time. The only way to avoid this is working in L*A*B* where luminosity and colour channels are decoupled.

The benefits of LAB are real, I'm sure, but you don't have to do that to avoid this problem. As I wrote, it was a mistake to convert an inverted image to tiff before adjusting RGB curves. Doing it the other way round (Invert > Set WB > Adjust RGB curves > Convert to tiff) avoids this problem.

[jaapv]

If you do so in PS that is correct as PS will use LAB in the background in that case. 

[LocalHero1953]

17 minutes ago, jaapv said:

If you do so in PS that is correct as PS will use LAB in the background in that case. 

And it works in LR - which doesn't use LAB - AFAIK

[jaapv]

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No. But LR generates previews and only converts the DNG during export so I am sure that Adobe uses some emulation. 

[williamj]

Can anyone advise on this problem when inverting black and white negatives? I can see the grain clearly in the digital image of the negative but after I invert the image to get a positive the grain goes soft and in some cases disappears. When I have the images scanned by a lab the grain in the positives is clear. Any suggestions are welcome thanks. 

[Doug A]

4 hours ago, williamj said:

Can anyone advise on this problem when inverting black and white negatives? I can see the grain clearly in the digital image of the negative but after I invert the image to get a positive the grain goes soft and in some cases disappears. When I have the images scanned by a lab the grain in the positives is clear. Any suggestions are welcome thanks. 

I don't see this problem when I invert my b&w negative scans using Affinity Photo. What software are you using to invert your negatives?

[williamj]

10 hours ago, Doug A said:

I don't see this problem when I invert my b&w negative scans using Affinity Photo. What software are you using to invert your negatives?

With raw files I use RawTherapee and GIMP and for JPEGs I use GIMP by itself. 
 

I wondered whether this might be the problem but a) I’m loathe to spend money on a software package when I’m not focused on digital and b) there might be a process that works using these tools. 
 

Thanks for your reply. 
 

After writing that I checked Affinity Photo and see that it is quite reasonably priced, which means no Lightroom or photoshop subscription would be needed. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by williamj
Added information

[Doug A]

4 minutes ago, williamj said:

With raw files I use RawTherapee and GIMP and for JPEGs I use GIMP by itself. 
 

I wondered whether this might be the problem but a) I’m loathe to spend money on a software package when I’m not focused on digital and b) there might be a process that works using these tools. 
 

Thanks for your reply. 

I wonder if film type might be an issue. I use only conventional cubic grain films, no tabular grain or Delta films. And I mostly use ISO 400 film rather than slower films. 

Also, what happens if you export one of your inverted positives, i.e., get it out of the application, and then import it again and invert it again to make it back into a negative. If I do that with my software and images the grain in an inverted + exported + imported + inverted negative image is indistinguishable from the original negative image. That would tell you if the software is doing anything more than a simple mathematical inversion (X2 = (256 - X1)) of the individual pixels. 

[williamj]

1 hour ago, Doug A said:

I wonder if film type might be an issue. I use only conventional cubic grain films, no tabular grain or Delta films. And I mostly use ISO 400 film rather than slower films. 

Also, what happens if you export one of your inverted positives, i.e., get it out of the application, and then import it again and invert it again to make it back into a negative. If I do that with my software and images the grain in an inverted + exported + imported + inverted negative image is indistinguishable from the original negative image. That would tell you if the software is doing anything more than a simple mathematical inversion (X2 = (256 - X1)) of the individual pixels. 

I mainly use HP5+ and Tri-X so that’s not a problem although I can see grain from the commercial scans even in TMax 100 if I blow it up big enough. 
 

You ask an interesting question about inverting inversions and I will try that out as soon as possible.

[williamj]

5 hours ago, Doug A said:

Also, what happens if you export one of your inverted positives, i.e., get it out of the application, and then import it again and invert it again to make it back into a negative. If I do that with my software and images the grain in an inverted + exported + imported + inverted negative image is indistinguishable from the original negative image. That would tell you if the software is doing anything more than a simple mathematical inversion (X2 = (256 - X1)) of the individual pixels. 

The inversion of the inversion is indistinguishable from the original whether it is performed on my DSLR capture or on the Noritsu scan of the negative. However, the Noritsu scan is far crisper with sharper grain than the DSLR capture. I have a 24 Mpx Nikon D600 with a 60 mm Nikon micronikkor lens and I use Liveview to focus the lens. 
 

The result from all of this I need to get better at digital capture of the images from my negatives, assuming that DSLR capture can equal that from a Noritsu scan. 
 

Thanks for your help. 

[hansvons]

5 hours ago, williamj said:

The result from all of this I need to get better at digital capture of the images from my negatives, assuming that DSLR capture can equal that from a Noritsu scan. 

That's precisely what I learned.

Initially, I used an Elmarit 60mm R at ASP-C with the SL2-S. That was okay-ish, but the resolution was too low. I then got macro extensions tube for scanning 1:1. That was a bad idea, as the corners were smeary at any f-stop, and proper sharpness was challenging to achieve. Now I use a contemporary Sigma 70mm L-Mount macro lens, which is terribly sharp across the whole frame at f-11 and has AF. The AF does a great job. A true revelation!

I also learned that every film stocks tend to require different sharpening settings. While figuring out the right amount, focusing solely on the grain is crucial, similar to the initial scan focus or in the darkroom setting up the enlarger. When the grain has the correct sharpness, the whole image is sharp in the best possible way for a film-generated B&W image. 

[williamj]

13 hours ago, hansvons said:

That's precisely what I learned.

Initially, I used an Elmarit 60mm R at ASP-C with the SL2-S. That was okay-ish, but the resolution was too low. I then got macro extensions tube for scanning 1:1. That was a bad idea, as the corners were smeary at any f-stop, and proper sharpness was challenging to achieve. Now I use a contemporary Sigma 70mm L-Mount macro lens, which is terribly sharp across the whole frame at f-11 and has AF. The AF does a great job. A true revelation!

I also learned that every film stocks tend to require different sharpening settings. While figuring out the right amount, focusing solely on the grain is crucial, similar to the initial scan focus or in the darkroom setting up the enlarger. When the grain has the correct sharpness, the whole image is sharp in the best possible way for a film-generated B&W image. 

Thanks for sharing the lenses you use. I’ve used extension tubes on the micronikkor 55mm lens but that did not improve things. The 60 mm micronikkor is my second lens and it looks like I may have to go to a third lens. 
 

How important is the copy stand set up and are there any recommendations of what to do and what not to do?

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, williamj said:

How important is the copy stand set up and are there any recommendations of what to do and what not to do?

I use a tripod. A dedicated copy stand with fine height adjustment would be better, but a tripod has zero marginal cost for me!

Edited August 2, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[williamj]

21 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I use a tripod. A dedicated copy stand with fine height adjustment would be better, but a tripod has zero marginal cost for me!

Ok thanks. I use a tripod as well, just wondering if there is a marginal gain on quality to be had. I use a 10 sec delay trigger. 

[Steve Ricoh]

One of the Photrio crew kindly shared his procedure in an open forum, and in so doing I presume it’s ok for me to share it here. 
https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/flipped-doing-color-negative-inversions-manually/

The technique appears to be similar to the OP’s methods.

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[250swb]

7 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

One of the Photrio crew kindly shared his procedure in an open forum, and in so doing I presume it’s ok for me to share it here. 
https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/flipped-doing-color-negative-inversions-manually/

The technique appears to be similar to the OP’s methods.

It’s pretty typical of a Photrio post that the faff is very important to the process. They will always pontificate the most complicated methods of doing something for fear the simple methods mean you aren’t proper photographers.  For simple mortals pressing a simple button in ColorPerfect in Photoshop or maybe NLP in Lightroom gets the same result time after time with no other endless juggling.
 

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by 250swb

[algrove]

I for one copy my B&W negatives with my M11M and Laowa 85 Macro lens at F11. If I have color I use my M11 with same lens.

IMHO this makes life quite simple AFA scanning and PP is concerned.