Capture One / Lightroom Q3 RAW different field of view

[Ianrandy]

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Hello everyone 👋

The Q3 is my first Leica and I'm trying to understand how the RAWs "work". In this test I'm not using the digital crop in any way, just using default 28mm

When I import them to Lightroom I see the file as I do on the camera screen, and it's consistant with the .jpg 

When I import them to Capture One I see a slightly tighter crop by default. When I then click the crop button a whole load of extra image that's not visible in camera or Lightroom appears. 

The image shows the bottom corner of the frame and the marks on the door illustrate this well

Is this expected? Can I not see the whole image in Lightroom? what's going on? 🙂 Any insights appreciated

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[jaapv]

That is correct. Lightroom applies the in-camera lens formula corrections (designed into the lens) and C1 does not do so properly. Basically the Q lens is a 26 mm lens. For better optical quality the optical part is designed to shift as many aberrations as possible into distortion towards the edges. The camera firmware then corrects the distortion digitally and crops off the inferior edges to the viewing angle of a 28 mm lens and writes the corrections into the DNG. Lightroom follows the DNG instructions, C1 less so. For JPG the camera outputs the image as Leica intended. LR has an option to see the uncorrected image. 
This way some modern lenses deliver better quality whilst being smaller and lighter. Not only with Leica, BTW. Lenses are no longer just glass and metal. 

[Ianrandy]

18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

That is correct. Lightroom applies the in-camera lens formula corrections (designed into the lens) and C1 does not. Basically the Q lens is a 26 mm lens. For better optical quality the optical part is designed to shift as many aberrations as possible into distortion towards the edges. The camera firmware then corrects the distortion digitally and crops off the inferior edges to the viewing angle of a 28 mm lens and writes the corrections into the DNG. C1 fails to implement the corrections correctly. Lightroom follows the DNG instructions. For JPG the camera outputs the image as Leica intended. 
This way some modern lenses deliver better quality whilst being smaller and lighter. Not only with Leica, BTW. Lenses are no longer just glass and metal. 

That's very interesting, thank you for your explanation. I'd not seen this before testing my Q3.  

Interestingly, both versions of the image report the same resolution despite one showing a wider view (60.3mp). I'm assuming then Lightroom discards the data and I'm shown an effective 58/59 megapixel image instead? 🤔 - still much more than plenty.. I'm just trying to understand it properly

[jaapv]

No, Lightroom does not discard the data but it does not show them by default. I would say that Lightroom shows the exact image and C1 not, as Leica works closely with Adobe

[pegelli]

Try reducing the scale in Lightroom (on the transform menu) and then you can see if the extra pixels are there or not.

Older versions of Lightroom used to crop these out and only show the "intendended" part of the image as per the built-in lens profile but I don't know how the current version handles this.

[Ianrandy]

42 minutes ago, pegelli said:

Try reducing the scale in Lightroom (on the transform menu) and then you can see if the extra pixels are there or not.

Older versions of Lightroom used to crop these out and only show the "intendended" part of the image as per the built-in lens profile but I don't know how the current version handles this.

Thanks, but it doesn't. Seems it's set in Lightroom by a "Built-in Lens Profile Applied" value that can't be modified. I've been going down the rabbit hole of this today, its very interesting.

You can see the data in other RAW editors, and yes the initial distortion on this lens is HUGE, so much more than the Sony and Fujifilm files I've got to compare to. The post processing software does an awful lot of work 

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[SrMi]

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On the other hand, DxO's tools create a wider image than they should. 

[Ianrandy]

The information is being recorded by the sensor, albeit heavily distorted, and is trimmed and hidden in camera and Lightroom.

To make it available and corrected when you’re doing things like perspective alterations seems like it would be beneficial, but unfortunately it isn’t. It could add some useful extra data to the scene 

[Qwertynm]

In order to see the untouched dng in Lightroom you need a dng cleaner. What you show above is the stretched and upscaled image how C1 interprets it. The Lux of the Q has barrel distortion not pincussion. 

[ChrisHudson]

Just been playing with Lightroom Classic and Darktable (the open source RAW editor).

I've just got my Q3 and looking at the DNGs in LR and they're same as the JPGs, but... in Darktable I noticed the edges of the lens hood (I assume) in the shots. Took me while to find the Lens correction feature but switched it on and the shots look as I expected. Bit worried at first but you can see the edge distortion 'flatten' out when the correction is applied. 

Interesting to learn how Leica have done this to create a better image. 

[jaapv]

Suggest that. you parse the forum. There must be fifty threads on the subject since the Q was introduced. 

[Qwertynm]

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on the left side is what you are supposed to see. on the right side is what the camera sees, hence why people are talking about the Q Summilux being wider than 28mm. The image gets cropped and stretched in camera (if you shoot jpg) or in Lightroom on import to show the FoV of a 28mm. hope this helps

Edited November 3, 2023 by Qwertynm

[adrianh]

Even with corrections it's still a bit wider than a 28mm. But as jaapv mentioned, there are hundreds of threads about this topic as this has been a topic since the original Q was introduced. 

[SrMi]

11 hours ago, ChrisHudson said:

Just been playing with Lightroom Classic and Darktable (the open source RAW editor).

I've just got my Q3 and looking at the DNGs in LR and they're same as the JPGs, but... in Darktable I noticed the edges of the lens hood (I assume) in the shots. Took me while to find the Lens correction feature but switched it on and the shots look as I expected. Bit worried at first but you can see the edge distortion 'flatten' out when the correction is applied. 

Interesting to learn how Leica have done this to create a better image. 

Welcome to the forum :).

Yes, you have observed a known property of Q raw files. The lens is designed so that it requires software distortion correction.

[SrMi]

12 hours ago, Qwertynm said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

on the left side is what you are supposed to see. on the right side is what the camera sees, hence why people are talking about the Q Summilux being wider than 28mm. The image gets cropped and stretched in camera (if you shoot jpg) or in Lightroom on import to show the FoV of a 28mm. hope this helps

 

When people talk about Q being wider than 28 mm, they consider the JPEG output (or the corrected DNG).