The SL2 is all the camera you need ...

[Sohail]

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47MP is for me well past the point of sufficiency. 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

As ASML has not yet started the delivery of EUV Lithography machines, I doubt that the sensors used for cameras that are well into the design stage will have sensors that are improved significantly over the ones we are using now. Incremental will be the best description. And - to be fair - it is hard to envisage what "better" or higher resolving sensors will add to the quality of our images, which is well beyond the capability of over 95% of photographers as it is - but not beyond the wishes of techno-geeks, apparently .

[pgh]

8 hours ago, BernardC said:

All I can say is that I would be disappointed if the SL3 used a sensor that is as-old-as the current 47MP sensor, doesn't perform as well (according to some online testing sites), and isn't well-suited to video. I know the fp-l uses that sensor, and it's a video camera, but it has disappointing readout times at most crop factors. That's OK for very advanced users; Sigma has a chart showing which crop factors to use if you want to minimize rolling shutter. It's not a great compromise for everyone else. Do you remember the terrible reviews that the fp-l received from influencer-vloggers? They just couldn't get their mind around it. I'm sure that Leica doesn't want that kind of PR for their next flagship mirrorless.

Also, every SL has used a new sensor that outperformed the competition, so it would be a shame if that wasn't the case for the SL3.

Of course, there's always a possibility that Sony Micro has improved that sensor, but why would Sony's consumer electronics division release a new A7r this year using the old 60MP? It's not a do-or-die camera for them, they would have waited a few months if there was something better on the way.

Disclaimer: I am just speculating. I have no way of knowing what Leica has in store for us.

Who honestly buys a Leica for video? This might be a naive question, and I know the SL2-S is better for it. But for that sort of outlay, you can do much better all around - for video.

It's a stretch enough to buy one for stills - for video, so many considerations with regard to form factor (which is - besides branding - part of what sells Leica so well). I think Leica would do their brand more disservice if they were clearly prioritizing pleasing video users over stills, regardless of the camera body. At least unless they put out a dedicated cine camera. That said, I think sensors underwent huge improvements up until about ~2015. At that point gains have been marginal. In all but the most extreme of use cases sensor improvements have hardly been the main reason to buy a camera once you're already at about ~40 mp or so. Most users realize that in real life most of the frustrations of digital of the generations past are no longer really there.

I have no desire for an SL3 but I'm not sure how big an improvement is really possible in the sensor anyways. I'd look for Leica to sell it on some other specs in general, or have a challenge in shilling a new sensor that's essentially a lateral move. Still, for some 60>47 is all that will be needed. 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

As ASML has not yet started the delivery of EUV Lithography machines, I doubt that the sensors used for cameras that are well into the design stage will have sensors that are improved significantly over the ones we are using now. Incremental will be the best description. And - to be fair - it is hard to envisage what "better" or higher resolving sensors will add to the quality of our images, which is well beyond the capability of over 95% of photographers as it is - but not beyond the wishes of techno-geeks, apparently .

They wouldn't improve the quality of my photos, but they would certainly improve my chances of getting acceptable ones: indoor moving people with depth of focus that copes with more than one head in shot at a time, without expecting Adobe or Topaz to rebuild faces and skin textures from AI memory. And taking photos with a silent shutter where people are moving, or lit by 50Hz LEDs/fluorescents. I'm happy to do without more pixels for these benefits.

[jaapv]

I may be totally wrong, but I don't expect an SL3 to have a dramatic sensor upgrade.

[LocalHero1953]

50 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I may be totally wrong, but I don't expect an SL3 to have a dramatic sensor upgrade.

Hope is what keeps the forum going

[pgh]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

I may be totally wrong, but I don't expect an SL3 to have a dramatic sensor upgrade.

A dramatic sensor upgrade in 35mm format doesn't really exist afaik.

It hardly exists in medium format unless you're going to sensors that are close to true 645 (which is not the Fuji/Hasselblad ones). 

I mean, I guess you can parse out what qualifies as dramatic but in real life use I consider my SL2 to be about equivalent to my 907x - in terms of image quality. Equivalent but not equal. (I've used a gfx100s and the resolution bump is real but even that is hardly a dramatic upgrade - unless you regularly are printing past 40 or so inches, and even then marginal is probably the better word.)

In some cases the hassy is a little better and in a few cases actually a touch worse but mostly I find them each useful because they're different cameras.

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

I may be totally wrong, but I don't expect an SL3 to have a dramatic sensor upgrade.

There's nothing really dramatic about a stacked BSI sensor, though, it's just faster than non-stacked. If we don't see a stacked sensor in the SL3, there could still be a future SL3 variant that has one.

With Canon poised to release the R1 with the first commercially viable global shutter, the slow readout of the 60mp Sony sensor is going to feel very old far before the end of the SL3 production. Leica needs to break the cycle. PDAF is a great start, but they need to offer more than a M11/Q3 sensor with an L-mount (IMO).

Edited August 1, 2023 by hdmesa

[TAFFY]

I'm a digital M user and have recently added the SL2-S.  I find it quite enjoyable to use -- different from the M experience but I'm enjoying it.  I recently took it on a family holiday with only the 12-60 Lumix lens and a 35 1.5 Nokton with the M adapter and came home with photos I'm very happy with.  

Sharing the highlights of my brief time so far with my SL2-S:

• Image quality and colours.  I love the colours of the SL2-S.  I would say my M10 takes renders colours in a true-to-life way and my SL2-S has richer color palette which makes for nice travel photos.  
• Supports fast shooting with ISO, buffer, and Image Stabilisation.  I was shooting landscapes out of a moving train passing quickly through a lot of trees and poles and The speed and stabilisation allowed me to shoot many acceptable shots. 
• Metering Modes. The highlight-priority metering has helped me very much in post processing that I am able to preserve highlights well and lift shadows without much noise. 
• Build Quality is very Leica. The body is well built that while it is an expensive camera, I'm confident that it can take abuse (surely more than the 20-60 would). 
• Can charge with a power bank and USB-C cable. 
• Geotag photos with the app via Bluetooth.  I am not addicted to Geotagging LOL.
• Not about the camera but the Lumix 20-60 is pretty good.  Pictures attached to this post are made with it.  The 20mm focal length + weight is great. 

Coming from M-shooting was a bit of an adjustment but here are a few things I wanted to share the following :

• Make the camera lighter to carry with Peak Design Strap.  I attached one of the ends to the underside of the camera so the lens points straight down while slung on my side.  Made the weight more manageable when hiking etc.  Used a wrist strap for street shooting and was quite comfortable. 
• Highlight-Weighted metering all the time to make the files more processing-friendly. 
• Weight. I'm still not ready to buy heavier lenses so I'm using my M-lenses along with the kit.  The bigger M lenses now feel smaller on the SL2-S like the 50 Nokton 1.2 which does great on it.  I'm hoping to get a faster lens but I think I can still survive with M lenses and 1 AF zoom (although I am thinking of getting 1 or 2 more L lenses that aren't too heavy or big-- 24-105, 50/2, 35/2 ) 
• The SL2-S spoils me. The M is like a teacher.  I find myself needing to concentrate more shooting my M than the SL2-S paying attention more to exposing correctly and anticipating shots.  

All in all, I love the SL2-S experience and I think since the sensor is so good I don't see myself needing to upgrade for a while. 

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Taffy 

[LocalHero1953]

10 hours ago, pgh said:

Who honestly buys a Leica for video? This might be a naive question, and I know the SL2-S is better for it. But for that sort of outlay, you can do much better all around - for video.

It's a stretch enough to buy one for stills - for video, so many considerations with regard to form factor (which is - besides branding - part of what sells Leica so well). I think Leica would do their brand more disservice if they were clearly prioritizing pleasing video users over stills, regardless of the camera body. At least unless they put out a dedicated cine camera. That said, I think sensors underwent huge improvements up until about ~2015. At that point gains have been marginal. In all but the most extreme of use cases sensor improvements have hardly been the main reason to buy a camera once you're already at about ~40 mp or so. Most users realize that in real life most of the frustrations of digital of the generations past are no longer really there.

I have no desire for an SL3 but I'm not sure how big an improvement is really possible in the sensor anyways. I'd look for Leica to sell it on some other specs in general, or have a challenge in shilling a new sensor that's essentially a lateral move. Still, for some 60>47 is all that will be needed. 

Buy a Leica solely for video? I haven't, but it's certainly one of my criteria for buying one (and not buying a Q3, because it can't record longer than 30 minutes video). At present I don't have to buy a second camera for video; however, if I find I do need a separate video body, a SL3 or second SL2-S wouldn't require the outlay of another set of lenses (e.g. BM Pocket Cinema). I previously bought the Sigma fp for exactly this reason.

Leica makes highly regarded, and very high priced, cine lenses so 'outlay' is clearly not a criteria for those who want the right kit. There have also been posts in this forum noting that the SL2/2-S is actually being bought and used for certain small scale video productions or as second cameras. 

[Sohail]

59 minutes ago, TAFFY said:

Sharing the highlights of my brief time so far with my SL2-S

• Can charge with a power bank and USB-C cable. 

Really? I've never tried this. I guess I've never had the need.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, TAFFY said:

I'm a digital M user and have recently added the SL2-S.  I find it quite enjoyable to use -- different from the M experience but I'm enjoying it.  I recently took it on a family holiday with only the 12-60 Lumix lens and a 35 1.5 Nokton with the M adapter and came home with photos I'm very happy with.  

Sharing the highlights of my brief time so far with my SL2-S:

• Image quality and colours.  I love the colours of the SL2-S.  I would say my M10 takes renders colours in a true-to-life way and my SL2-S has richer color palette which makes for nice travel photos.  
• Supports fast shooting with ISO, buffer, and Image Stabilisation.  I was shooting landscapes out of a moving train passing quickly through a lot of trees and poles and The speed and stabilisation allowed me to shoot many acceptable shots. 
• Metering Modes. The highlight-priority metering has helped me very much in post processing that I am able to preserve highlights well and lift shadows without much noise. 
• Build Quality is very Leica. The body is well built that while it is an expensive camera, I'm confident that it can take abuse (surely more than the 20-60 would). 
• Can charge with a power bank and USB-C cable. 
• Geotag photos with the app via Bluetooth.  I am not addicted to Geotagging LOL.
• Not about the camera but the Lumix 20-60 is pretty good.  Pictures attached to this post are made with it.  The 20mm focal length + weight is great. 

Coming from M-shooting was a bit of an adjustment but here are a few things I wanted to share the following :

• Make the camera lighter to carry with Peak Design Strap.  I attached one of the ends to the underside of the camera so the lens points straight down while slung on my side.  Made the weight more manageable when hiking etc.  Used a wrist strap for street shooting and was quite comfortable. 
• Highlight-Weighted metering all the time to make the files more processing-friendly. 
• Weight. I'm still not ready to buy heavier lenses so I'm using my M-lenses along with the kit.  The bigger M lenses now feel smaller on the SL2-S like the 50 Nokton 1.2 which does great on it.  I'm hoping to get a faster lens but I think I can still survive with M lenses and 1 AF zoom (although I am thinking of getting 1 or 2 more L lenses that aren't too heavy or big-- 24-105, 50/2, 35/2 ) 
• The SL2-S spoils me. The M is like a teacher.  I find myself needing to concentrate more shooting my M than the SL2-S paying attention more to exposing correctly and anticipating shots.  

All in all, I love the SL2-S experience and I think since the sensor is so good I don't see myself needing to upgrade for a while. 
Taffy 

Very nice images, but please do not post photos for display in the technical forums. Images to illustrate a technical point only. We have dedicated photoforums and image threads for the purpose.

[Simone_DF]

I guess that when the Panasonic S1RII will be announced, we'll have a good idea of what the SL3 may bring to the table

[TAFFY]

32 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Very nice images, but please do not post photos for display in the technical forums. Images to illustrate a technical point only. We have dedicated photoforums and image threads for the purpose.

Got it @jaapv thanks for the reminder.  

[hamey]

Also agree with most, I love the images that I am getting from my two  SL2-S, simply more then adequate for my needs.

Ken

[BernardC]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

There's nothing really dramatic about a stacked BSI sensor, though, it's just faster than non-stacked. If we don't see a stacked sensor in the SL3, there could still be a future SL3 variant that has one.

With Canon poised to release the R1 with the first commercially viable global shutter, the slow readout of the 60mp Sony sensor is going to feel very old far before the end of the SL3 production. Leica needs to break the cycle. PDAF is a great start, but they need to offer more than a M11/Q3 sensor with an L-mount (IMO).

It's funny how "BSI" was a fanboy mantra, until people realized that Sony didn't invent it, wasn't first to market, and that many other sensors used this tech for years without fanfare. Now the mantra is "stacked BSI," but that's just another incremental step with few real-world advantages.

I wonder how Canon's sensor will perform. The reason why we have so few global shutter sensors in photography and cinema is because they suffer from lower image quality and DR. The few cine cameras with global sensors are also available with non-global sensors for this reason. IQ compromises may be worthwhile for professional sports cameras, but what about the rest of us?

 

I really think that the only recent innovative sensor has come from Arri (who supposedly get their sensors fabbed by the same people who make the 47MP SL2 sensor). Of course, there's a lot you can do in a 3kg cine camera that you can't do in a consumer ILC.

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, pgh said:

A dramatic sensor upgrade in 35mm format doesn't really exist afaik.

It hardly exists in medium format unless you're going to sensors that are close to true 645 (which is not the Fuji/Hasselblad ones). 

I mean, I guess you can parse out what qualifies as dramatic but in real life use I consider my SL2 to be about equivalent to my 907x - in terms of image quality. Equivalent but not equal. (I've used a gfx100s and the resolution bump is real but even that is hardly a dramatic upgrade - unless you regularly are printing past 40 or so inches, and even then marginal is probably the better word.)

In some cases the hassy is a little better and in a few cases actually a touch worse but mostly I find them each useful because they're different cameras.

I am sure that EUV lithography will make a considerable difference. After twenty years of development appears to be in production now. 
https://www.asml.com/en/products/euv-lithography-systems

[pgh]

On 8/1/2023 at 10:14 AM, jaapv said:

I am sure that EUV lithography will make a considerable difference. After twenty years of development appears to be in production now. 
https://www.asml.com/en/products/euv-lithography-systems

Is it being used in mainstream camera releases at the moment? What sort of material differences should we expect? 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, pgh said:

Is it being used in mainstream camera releases at the moment? What sort of material differences should we expect? 

As. far as I can find on the Internet not yet. This  is  next-generation stuff. Some articles mention a "70% improvement (?)"  Whatever that may mean.
Samsung is the most outspoken without getting specific in a somewhat older publication:

https://news.samsung.com/global/a-look-at-euv-the-core-technology-behind-next-generation-chips

Note that ASML is only starting deliveries at the end of this year.

[eyecibus]

On 8/1/2023 at 11:15 AM, Simone_DF said:

I guess that when the Panasonic S1RII will be announced, we'll have a good idea of what the SL3 may bring to the table

I just picked up the S5 II and I definitely welcome the autofocus improvements from it for the next SL cameras. You can use it in AFc and actually get reliable performance in any situation.