Random viewfinder magnification query

[Leicalott]

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Hi guys,

As the cliché goes, I'm a long-time reader, first-time poster. 

I've noticed a strange phenomenon with my street photography, where, in the moment, I could swear that I'm close enough to my subjects, I'm checking edges of frame etc.. and everything that needs to be prominent, seems to be. 

However, when I get my shots developed (I shoot film), most of them seem to be too far away, or too distant, if that makes sense? I'm not talking miles off, but there seems to be a lack of dynamism/engagement, where being closer might have solved it.

Anyway, my query is, does viewfinder magnification play any part? I shoot with an M-A which has 0.72 magnification and I use a 28mm. I have a suspicion that the reverse magnification (ie. smaller than 1), is 'tricking' my eye into thinking that things are closer than they actually are. This probably makes no sense, but just wanted to check if this is a known thing?

I guess the alternative is that 28mm is too wide for my natural inclination and might need to go tighter.

Anyway, keen to hear your thoughts.

Thank you!!

Raphael 

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[jaapv]

Your observation. is correct, but it has nothing to do. with viewfinder magnification. There is a beautiful German word for this inevitable optical phenomenon: Bildfeldschwund.

A lens does not have a fixed angle of view; it is the widest  at infinity and the most narrow at minimum focus distance, caused by the extension of focusing. (*)

Thus the angle of view will only match the framelines of the viewfinder at one distance, mostly 2 m or 1 m depending on the M model. That means that your framelines are too narrow at infinity and often  too wide completely close up. As a rough rule of thumb: add three frameline widths at infinity and subtract one (or zero if your frameline distance matches the minimum of the lens) at closest focus distance. 

There are more inaccuracies, namely parallax error. The M compensates diagonal and vertical parallax by shifting the framelines but there is no way to compensate for perspective parallax error which is caused by the offset of the viewfinder window. This can hide or reveal objects in your composition as the scene at further distances is shifted in relation to closer up  

(*) It works slightly differently for lenses with internal focusing, but still will be present, depending on the optical design.

 

[grahamc]

Very interesting response jaapv 👍

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Leicalott,

Welcome to written participation in the Forum.

To add to Jaap's thoughtful response: The image captured on the film/sensor always includes more of the scene than the frame lines show. This was done purposely by the designers to make sure that the image viewed thru the range/viewfinder window would always be in the image captured on the film/sensor.

The amount captured on the film/sensor is closest to what is seen inside the frame lines at the shorter focusing distances. Even at shorter focusing distances: There is always more of the image captured than what is seen inside the frame lines.

At longer distances: The amount captured that is outside of the frame lines: Becomes even more.

When the lens is set to Infinity: The amount captured that is outside of the frame lines is even more than is captured when the lens is focused to part of the way from the closest setting & Infinity. 

This happens because: The angle of view actually captured on the film/sensor varies as a lens is focused:

When a lens is focused at Infinity: Its actual focal length is SHORTEST. The image captured covers a wider angle.

When a lens is focused to a closer distance: The lens barrel extends forward. This makes the actual focal length LONGER. The image captured covers a narrower angle.

Therefore LESS of the image captured is outside of the frame lines.

And the image captured on the film/sensor more closely approximates what is seen inside the frame lines.

Please ask more questions.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited May 6, 2023 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Leicalott,

With range/viewfinder cameras it important to:

Frame a scene you want to take a photo of.

Then focus.

Then reframe the scene before taking a photo.

If the point focused on is not near the center of the scene framed:

It may be necessary to compensate the focus.

Please ask.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Leicalott]

Ah, thank you all for your responses, this is fantastic information. And yes, to many of your points, I almost always shoot at infinity for zone focusing purposes, so this would theoretically account for the additional width I am seeing in my frames. 

Excellent, with this in mind I will experiment and see if I can compensate for this effect.

Thanks again for your help!

Raphael 

[jaapv]

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For negative film and digital use the outside of the framelines, for slide film the inside to compensate for the mounting of  the slide. This was designed this way intentionally.  
If you can find it as it is long out of print , Leica M Advanced Photo School by Gūnther Osterloh is the most useful book to read for understanding the use and background of Leica M cameras. There is so much more to using a Leica M than many shooters realize If you have to ask the original question you have only scratched the surface of the creative possibilities. 

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

Frame lines starting with the M4-P or so, are not the most accurate.  They show 23 x 35mm -- same as a mounted slide -- at a distance of 0.7m.  It is about this time Leica added a 28mm frame line, and they shrunk the others to make it fit (my explanation).  The frame lines on old models show 24 x 36mm and are registered at a distance of about 1-2m.  This results in the older models showing about 10-15% more space.   So with a newer model, you'll get more than what the frame lines show, typically.  

Then of course with a rangefinder and wide angle you're not looking through the lens, so you're not seeing the wide angle view but a more normal lens view.  Things are going to be further back than what you see.  Your normal eye sight is essentially a 50mm lens; one reason why (I believe) a 50 is easier to shoot on a rangefinder.  

So, tricks I learned when shooting a wide angle and M, when you think you're close enough, take a step closer.  Also, pay conscious attention to the empty space between subject and frame lines.  Often that's the stuff that needs to be excluded.  Basically, fill the frame.  Soon it becomes second nature.

Edited May 6, 2023 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

[Huss]

I think also there is a mental aspect to it.  When you see your subject, to you it is the primary and so while you are concentrating on it, you 'think' it is filling the scene.  As that is what you are focused on.  But you also need to detach yourself for a moment from just your subject and view your scene as a whole, and then you may realize it is not filling your frame as much as you think it is!

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

I think also there is a mental aspect to it.  When you see your subject, to you it is the primary and so while you are concentrating on it, you 'think' it is filling the scene.  As that is what you are focused on.  But you also need to detach yourself for a moment from just your subject and view your scene as a whole, and then you may realize it is not filling your frame as much as you think it is!

This.

It’s all too easy to ignore the edges of the frame and combine this with what @jaapv says about the edge accuracy and things can go awry. But as with anything it’s about practice, glasses wearers learn to scan the edges of the frame for wide lenses but it’s a general principle with an M camera. For example the edges of the frame of a Nikon F are 100% of what will be on the negative, but for a Leica M at any focal length you need to learn the coverage. It isn’t daunting and isn’t even worth practicing, it will come naturally, just use the camera and the camera will train you.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, TheBestSLIsALeicaflex said:

They show 23 x 35mm -- same as a mounted slide -- at a distance of 0.7m.

The inside does - the outside shows 24x36.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

Just to add:

The inside of an M3 frame line set indicates a 23mm X 35mm image when the lenses are set at:

1 meter/40 inches with a 50mm lens

1 meter/40 inches with a 90mm lens

1.5 meters/60 inches with a 135mm lens

Longer distances include more of the surrounding area.

Infinity gives the most additional surrounding area.

A 23mm X 35mm image inside of a 24mm X 36mm image captured on the film was purposely chosen so that users of slide/transparency films would not lose material under the slide/transparency mount.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

[Leicalott]

Hi everyone,

Sorry, only just checking additional responses now. Thank you so much, all, for taking the time to respond, really appreciate it. There really is so much to learn!

I had one other thought, if anyone is able to comment - given that some of you have mentioned 'taking another step in', what if I used the 35mm framelines as a guide, rather than the 28mm lines, for my 28mm focal length? Would this account for the extra step? In other words, would using the slightly tighter framelines account for the disparity in width between what I see in the viewfinder and what is actually captured on the film?

Thanks again!

 

[jaapv]

I think that using 35 instead of 28 is too much. And it won’t compensate for the difference in angle of view at various distances.
Accepting the learning curve is far better. At any rate more experienced users will frame loosely and if needed crop.