Leica S system being discontinued?

[helged]

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27 minutes ago, Paul0303 said:

If you follow the Leica Rumors article to the original French Phototrend article  https://phototrend.fr/2023/09/fin-production-leica-s3-hybride-moyen-format/   it has the interesting reporting

"Le prochain hybride conservera la monture S

Leica nous a précisé que ce nouvel appareil sans miroir conservera la monture S et sera donc compatible avec tout le parc optique moyen format développé depuis plus de 15 ans."

which translates (according to Google) to

"The next hybrid will retain the S mount 
Leica told us that this new mirrorless camera will retain the S mount and will therefore be compatible with the entire medium format optical fleet developed over more than 15 years."

Maybe I missed it but I haven't see that before?

 

 

 

My take on this is that the new S will be mirrorless, and that existing S-lenses can be used via an adapter. It would be interesting if L-mount lenses can be used (with FF-crop on the sensor), but this required that the  thickness of the new S-body has, at most, the thickness of L-mount bodies. 

[John McMaster]

29 minutes ago, irenedp said:

What intrigues me, though, is the term “hybrid”. 

From the comments lower down on Leica Rumours

'As a French person, I can explain: the word "hybrid" stands for "mirrorless".
It was invented around 2008, when the first mirrorless cameras looked like a compact camera with interchangeable lenses. Hence, "hybrids". Simple as that ;)'

john

[Stuart Richardson]

This is one of those statements where some of the details are not very significant (I don’t think there was much doubt that if there were to be another S, it would be mirrorless and still compatable with the S lenses.), but others are. I think it is notable that they say it will have an S mount. If that is accurate, then it would seem to rule out using 35mm L mount lenses in crop mode. I guess it is possible, but for me it is notable for what it will not be — an L mount camera with medium format lenses.
 

The other notable part is that they still issued a statement confirming that they are working on it and it will be out in 2025. That is consistent with their earlier statements, so it is good that they are still saying it.  
 

[irenedp]

7 hours ago, John McMaster said:

From the comments lower down on Leica Rumours

'As a French person, I can explain: the word "hybrid" stands for "mirrorless".
It was invented around 2008, when the first mirrorless cameras looked like a compact camera with interchangeable lenses. Hence, "hybrids". Simple as that ;)'

john

 

7 hours ago, John McMaster said:

From the comments lower down on Leica Rumours

'As a French person, I can explain: the word "hybrid" stands for "mirrorless".
It was invented around 2008, when the first mirrorless cameras looked like a compact camera with interchangeable lenses. Hence, "hybrids". Simple as that ;)'

john

thank you 🙂

[fotofool]

These rumors are making me take an interest in Leica again.  Having felt abandoned by Leica's failure to answer the challenge Hasselblad and Fuji established with their mirrorless medium format offerings, nearly seven years ago, I recently finally went all in on the Hasselblad X system.  I love it with few reservations.  But one of those is the optics.  My XCD lenses (I own most of the primes) are extremely good by any objective measure, but I do recognize that Leica optics are even better.  I've often wished that Leica, having chosen not to compete in the space, would make XCD mount lenses.  Now it appears they will finally make their own competing system instead.  I wish them luck.  But I will be surprised if they come up with something that is going to lure me back at this late date.  WIth my sunk cost, and the fantastic value of the Hasselblad and Fuji systems, it would take something both a lot better and with very un-Leicia-like prices to pry me away from my new system.  Still, I'll be watching with great interest and holding back on further investments in the meantime.

[Leicaflex]

There is an update on the „phototrend“ post. Leica has corrected the original statement and says the new S will have a new mount but will be compatible with the reflex lenses through an adapter.

https://phototrend.fr/2023/09/fin-production-leica-s3-hybride-moyen-format/

[Stuart Richardson]

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Interesting. That breathes a lot more life into the idea that it might use L mount...again, if they can do that technically. That would certainly provide synergy with the SL cameras, as there already is an S to L adaper that allows native use of the S lenses on the SL bodies. If it is technically possible, it would seem like a no-brainer to use L mount. Certainly would make customers happy, allowing existing SL users to spring for the new S mirrorless and still have all their lenses available for a crop-mode 35mm size.

[John McMaster]

Is the SL lens throat wide enough for a 45/30 sensor?

john

[Stuart Richardson]

17 minutes ago, John McMaster said:

Is the SL lens throat wide enough for a 45/30 sensor?

john

I don't know. The Leica L mount is about 50mm wide, while most medium format are around sixty. That said, most of them are SLRs. The Mamiya 7 is only 49mm and has a film area more than double the size of the Leica S sensor, same with the Hasselblad X-Pan...that is 46mm and covers 24x65mm. My guess is that it is a relationship between the flange focal distance and the potentially available lenses. Hopefully an actual lens designer can comment, but I suspect it is more about whether they can accomplish their lens design goals with that size mount or not, rather than whether or not it is possible. Certainly the hole does not need to bigger than the format. The image is projected out the rear of the lens, not from in front of the lens mount. That said, the smaller the opening and the closer the flange focal distance, the more the light exiting the lens is going to be at an angle, which might require offset microlenses like M cameras. In any case, these are just semi-educated guesses. I suspect that if Leica thinks they can produce good enough lenses for the camera, then they may well consider it.

[frame-it]

8 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

it would seem like a no-brainer to use L mount. Certainly would make customers happy, allowing existing SL users to spring for the new S mirrorless and still have all their lenses available for a crop-mode 35mm size.

in which case the S4 would have to be priced insanely high to deter the average SL user from leaving the  L system

[Stuart Richardson]

The S has always been more than double the price of an SL body…I hope the S4 is more reasonable, but I doubt it. Anyway, who knows what they will do…another option would be to keep a 35mm SL body more like the SL2S and have the high res version just be the S4. But I bet that would not go over well with some existing SL2 users who do not want a more expensive body. 

[fotofool]

2 hours ago, frame-it said:

in which case the S4 would have to be priced insanely high to deter the average SL user from leaving the  L system

Which would not be marketable given that the X2D exists.  But why think of it as leaving the L system rather than the L system finally graduating to what it should have been in the first place?

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, fotofool said:

Which would not be marketable given that the X2D exists.  But why think of it as leaving the L system rather than the L system finally graduating to what it should have been in the first place?

because IF the S4 specs are what everyone is guessing AND it has an L mount [highly unlikely] why would anyone buy an SL3? they would want an S4*, so the price of the S4 would have to be very high to keep the SL3 market intact [if it were to actually have an L Mount]

 

* they would grumble and moan and groan about the size but would buy it if the specs are great [if it were to actually have an L Mount]

so im guessing  it wouldn't have an L mount, but an S mount mirrorless, and adapter [free] for all the existing S lenses [dunno about the CS lenses], and a max price of $10-12,000, given that the SL3 would probably be a max price of $6000+

Edited September 29, 2023 by frame-it

[Leicaflex]

I‘m sure the S4 won‘t have the L-mount. Even Nikons larger Z-mount is to small for digital medium format.

But it would be great if they could accomplish to make a L-mount adapter. The flange distance will be difficult to reduce, but maybe the S4 has a fast enough sensor to use electronical shutter only, with the option for central shutter lenses. That would safe space.

The pricing will be interesting too. $8.000 for the Hasselblad is really low, compared to the S3. I‘m sure the S4 will cost more, but how much more can they charge?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Leicaflex

[John McMaster]

9 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't know. The Leica L mount is about 50mm wide, while most medium format are around sixty. That said, most of them are SLRs. The Mamiya 7 is only 49mm and has a film area more than double the size of the Leica S sensor, same with the Hasselblad X-Pan...that is 46mm and covers 24x65mm. My guess is that it is a relationship between the flange focal distance and the potentially available lenses.

New 'S4' lenses may work with a 50mm throat but I doubt existing S lenses would cover the sensor.

john

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, that could be. Well anyway, we'll see if they ever release it.

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, Leicaflex said:

I‘m sure the S4 won‘t have the L-mount. Even Nikons larger Z-mount is to small for digital medium format.

But it would be great if they could accomplish to make a L-mount adapter. The flange distance will be difficult to reduce, but maybe the S4 has a fast enough sensor to use electronical shutter only, with the option for central shutter lenses. That would safe space.

The pricing will be interesting too. $8.000 for the Hasselblad is really low, compared to the S3. I‘m sure the S4 will cost more, but how much more can they charge?

I think they will use the same flange distance as L mount, and offer an adapter that fits inside the new mount. Pentax and Yashica/Contax had similar adapters for the M42 "universal mount" (albeit without electronics, but that's a solvable problem).

Pricing should be interesting. The S is priced for professionals, but this one should be geared more for an "advanced amateur" market like the M and SL. My guess is that it will fall around M prices: more than the SL, but only by 30-50%.

[Pieter12]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

The S is priced for professionals, but this one should be geared more for an "advanced amateur"

Why? If it is for professionals, it could be priced more in the range of Phase One. If the pros want it and can charge for equipment use on an invoice, they will buy it.

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Pieter12 said:

Why? If it is for professionals, it could be priced more in the range of Phase One. If the pros want it and can charge for equipment use on an invoice, they will buy it.

You'll need to attend some meetings in Wetzlar 15+ years ago to know why. The price was competitive with PhaseOne and Hasselblad at the time, although PhaseOne is now much dearer, and Hasselblad stopped making SLRs.

My overall impression is that the S2 line was marketed to high-end professionals who needed medium format image quality, along with moisture sealing, leaf shutter lenses, more speed and responsiveness, etc. In short, a PhaseOne or Hasselblad H that offered the portability of a 1D, and that could shoot on the beach or in the rain without too much concern.

Whether or not that was the right choice is a pointless debate. It's all water under the bridge, and many of us who aren't jet-setting pros also get to enjoy this fantastic system.

It seems like the next system will be aimed at a broader market. They obviously won't turn away jet-setting pros (they may feature a few in promotional videos), just like they never turned away keen amateurs who wanted to buy an S. Every indication so far points to a camera system that appeals to the same crowd as the SL system.

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[helged]

17 hours ago, BernardC said:

I think they will use the same flange distance as L mount, and offer an adapter that fits inside the new mount. Pentax and Yashica/Contax had similar adapters for the M42 "universal mount" (albeit without electronics, but that's a solvable problem).

Pricing should be interesting. The S is priced for professionals, but this one should be geared more for an "advanced amateur" market like the M and SL. My guess is that it will fall around M prices: more than the SL, but only by 30-50%.

It is also my understanding, based on talks with Leica representatives, that a mirrorless S is designed to use L-mount lenses through an adapter. If so, this makes the mirrorless S-system much more attractive, as one can start with the body and, say, one newly designed mirrorless S-lens, and complete focal lengths with L-mount lenses. Plus existing S-lenses. Plus a wide range of other lenses.