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Leica S system being discontinued?


Sanji

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If you are patient, you can wait 5-10 years, and your "clinical" lens will be considered full of character. It is a seemingly endless cycle where a lens is introduced and criticized for being too sharp and clinical, and then a newer sharper lens comes along, and suddenly that one is too sharp and clinical, and the previous lens is a standard bearer of "character" lenses. The 50mm Summilux ASPH M was lambasted as being too harsh when it came out, now it is considered one of the nicest character lenses in the M lineup. I remember hearing that people feel the 120mm APO was too sharp for portraits. I never quite got it.

In any case, it is all in the eye of the beholder. In the absence of any objective standard, I would rather Leica just produce the technically best lenses they can. That will mean balancing all the aberrations they can and weighing the cost/benefit of different lens styles to end up with the best lens they can make. Personally, I really liked how Leica has approached the S lenses and SL APO Summicrons more like cinema lenses, in that they tried to harmonize the performance and look as much as possible across all the lenses. That makes my life much easier, especially in professional work. I can just choose the angle of view, and otherwise the lenses are very similar. For example, if I am photographing artwork or books, I can use two different lenses depending on the camera to subject distance I need in that setup, and I don't have to do any extra work in post processing to make them look consistent.

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@Stuart Richardson, I could not agree more about consistency.  The S lenses did a nice job of, for the most part, being consistent in color output even if the lenses all drew differently.  I would like to see more information about the lenses - like the S lenses have, rather than just an MTF graph and nothing else - like the SL lenses have.  I don’t like having to rely completely on the processor in the camera to determine what the final image is.  I guess I get that the SL system only has an EVF where as the (current) S system is OVF, but just like to know.  I can shoot the 24mm S lens and see what it will do at the edges.  I prefer that over a microchip that automatically crops it to remove the edges because of the performance.

That all said, I used this time to pick up a few S lenses at ridiculous prices and I fully believe, like R lenses, they will come back as a new body comes out and as people decide they like them more on the SL bodies (which I do as well).  I prefer the S lenses on the SL body for portraits, but each to their own!

We shall see….

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On 5/31/2023 at 10:37 AM, davidmknoble said:

@Stuart Richardson, I could not agree more about consistency.  The S lenses did a nice job of, for the most part, being consistent in color output even if the lenses all drew differently.  I would like to see more information about the lenses - like the S lenses have, rather than just an MTF graph and nothing else - like the SL lenses have.  I don’t like having to rely completely on the processor in the camera to determine what the final image is.  I guess I get that the SL system only has an EVF where as the (current) S system is OVF, but just like to know.  I can shoot the 24mm S lens and see what it will do at the edges.  I prefer that over a microchip that automatically crops it to remove the edges because of the performance.

That all said, I used this time to pick up a few S lenses at ridiculous prices and I fully believe, like R lenses, they will come back as a new body comes out and as people decide they like them more on the SL bodies (which I do as well).  I prefer the S lenses on the SL body for portraits, but each to their own!

We shall see….

I agree. I wish the information about the lenses included more information. That said, I am not so sure that the SL lenses are all that reliant on software corrections, at least for the APO Summicrons. I am sure that they use them to some degree, and I am sure more so in the zooms. Still, at the end of the day I don't really care what makes the image quality incredible. I am just glad that it is. I agree with you about the S lenses though. They are fantastic and a good value in certain ways at this point. The biggest difference, however, is that the R lenses have a manual iris and aperture ring and extremely good helical focusing, while the S lenses are reliant on electronics to stop down the lens and because of the AF they have a somewhat worse manual focus feel. Still better than most modern lenses, but not as nice as the R lenses. The aperture is the killer though. If some adapters come along to activate it on other cameras they might see a boost in popularity, but until then I think they are going to remain very niche.

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22 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The biggest difference, however, is that the R lenses have a manual iris and aperture ring and extremely good helical focusing, while the S lenses are reliant on electronics to stop down the lens and because of the AF they have a somewhat worse manual focus feel. Still better than most modern lenses, but not as nice as the R lenses. The aperture is the killer though. If some adapters come along to activate it on other cameras they might see a boost in popularity, but until then I think they are going to remain very niche.

That’s a great point on the difference.  You may laugh, but I picked up two SL2-R bodies to go with a few 3-cam R lenses I have because I worry that my R8/R9 will eventually die and not be repairable and the ROM lenses I have will only be good for digital work.  I still love film and even got into the Hasselblad this year to shoot 120.  The one great thing about this is that the cameras are all mechanical so like the M’s they can be fixed and used for a long time.  

The auto-iris on the S lenses probably helps keep them so weather resistant, but I do like the ability on the Hasselblad (CF type) lenses of being able to stop down and trigger the shutter manually.  I have an S adapter for the CF lenses but have not tried it yet…

 

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I used the V lenses at first when I got the S. The S lenses were so much better on digital that I mostly stuck with them, but it is still fun to use them at times. I sold all my R gear to get into the S the first time, but I am sure the ROM lenses work on the R6 as well...that is essentially just an M6 with a mirror box and viewfinder, if I recall correctly. The ROM contacts basically helped with metering, they are not required for stopping down or anything fundamental to functioning. The R6 is certainly a better deal than an M6 right now! You might consider one of those eventually, as I think it is the R camera that will shoot any of the lenses...maybe not 1 cam? It is sad that the R8/R9 are largely unserviceable at this point. I loved the R9. It was a bit large or bulky for my hands without the motor drive, but with the motor drive it was a dream. I think the really improved the handling in the S cameras. Now it is your turn to laugh...I wish they made a film S camera...preferably 120. Even if the images were slightly smaller than 645, it would have been a dream. Weirdly, I think it might have been less niche than the digital version. Assuming it was not priced like the digital one, haha.

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6 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

The one great thing about this is that the cameras are all mechanical so like the M’s they can be fixed and used for a long time.

Note that Hasselblad no longer repairs the analog V System cameras, and like all others, parts will eventually become hard to come by so independents will not be able to either.

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3 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Note that Hasselblad no longer repairs the analog V System cameras, and like all others, parts will eventually become hard to come by so independents will not be able to either.

Correct. In the US there are several factory technicians that cLA them. Like any they should last awhile in between . 

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Allow me try to interpret this  MTF. Correct me!

Assume we have a 100MP S4, to make sense with this lens, we are looking at 160 lpmm curve. 

If the whole image is a 160 lpmm pattern, we could boost the dynamic range (or contrast, etc.) by  3X, so that the center is at 100% and the 20mm corner is at 10%, the 15mm is at 30%.  This would be about what to get with 80 lpmm, or on a 25MP sensor.  However, the image would not be a uniform 150 lpmm pattern, so boost so much would muddy the center image. 

Can I conclude that 100MP sensor with such 160 lpmm lens would not show the benefit over a 25MP sensor with solid 80 lpmm lens? And, the 100MP beyond 25MP has diminishing ROI?    

 

 

135mm-f1.8-DG-HSM-Art-at-4.png

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Well, having been orphaned by Leica with the dropping of the R system, in which I had a very sizeable investment, it took me quite some time to invest in a Leica system again. Eventually I went for the S 007 as I felt it was, at least for me, the closest successor to the R8/R9 system. I truly hope not being abandoned again. As another poster stated, if one wanted to buy mirrorless and with electronic viewfinder, one would have bought other systems than the S already...

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13 hours ago, leicapages said:

Well, having been orphaned by Leica with the dropping of the R system, in which I had a very sizeable investment, it took me quite some time to invest in a Leica system again. Eventually I went for the S 007 as I felt it was, at least for me, the closest successor to the R8/R9 system. I truly hope not being abandoned again. As another poster stated, if one wanted to buy mirrorless and with electronic viewfinder, one would have bought other systems than the S already...

BH on S3 :

Quote

Sorry, but the Leica S3 is discontinued. 

 

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Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!


 

I’m surprised they even bothered to relaxed the S3 in the first place. 

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Just as a note, Leica has done this with every camera that they issue.  Some retailers more quickly than others.  B&H, which I purchase a lot of film and chemicals from, is not a Leica dealer.  

As equipment is being depleted from inventory, Leica tends to give it to Leica stores before other retailers, which makes good business sense.

I take this to mean a new system is very close to being announced.  Leica does not go to Photokena (spelling?) and there is no show to announce new systems as in the past.

If the S system is going mirrorless, which is a good bet given the lenses have also been depleted from stock, then an entire system will likely be announced.  They invested a lot in adapters for the S system, so likely a mirrorless to current lens adapter will come with it at the outset.

Medium format is not just about sensor pixel count, it is the entire look for longer focal lengths that appear to be shorter focal lengths and how that shows an end result. I love landscape work and high apertures with larger depths of field are more similar to 35mm systems, but I also took some portraits yesterday with the 100mm and the S007 and was reminded how great the system works for such shots.

Leica is still releasing 35mm film cameras (M6 remake) and I don’t believe they are abandoning the S system just yet.

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If anything, this is happening years after it was suspected. This can go one of two ways:

1. Leica is clearing inventory slowly and will eventually publicize the end of the system, like they did with the R system.

2. Leica is clearing inventory slowly and waiting until a replacement system is ready to announce its replacement.

No matter how you look at it, the S system as currently structured is at its end of life. There have been no major updates in years, almost ten year since the last lens, eight or so since the last body design (the S3 is the S007...only a few tweaks with the sensor and software are different). The lenses, as optically brilliant as they are, rely on screw drive autofocus and single point AF which are unlikely to cut it for the next generation of cameras (keep in mind that you have to add at least a decade to the usable life of the designs). Even if they keep the same lens formulas for the best of the lenses (45mm, 120 etc), they would need to be rehoused in a more modern lens body to allow for faster, quieter and more reliable focusing.

The OVF cameras are lovely in their way, and I think there will be a place for them in photographers' hands for a long time, but I think it is a harder sell from a business standpoint. Leica can make the S much more compatible, technologically advanced and marketable by switching to EVF. Not to mention potentially cheaper as well. Keep in mind that we are not the only market that Leica has to deal with. Leica also has to deal with their retailers, and at least in my discussions with a few retailers, they wanted nothing to do with the S system for years. It was incredibly hard to sell, and the amounts they offered for trade in reflected the fact that they would only take it if they had almost no risk. Even if the S served its chosen users very well, it was a toxic retail proposition. If Leica is going to relaunch the system I am sure they are conferring with their retailers about what they need to do to make it appealing to more customers. I think the biggest portion of that is making it an aspirational purchase for existing Leica SL and M users or trying to poach customers from Fuji (and Phase One...to the extent they still have enough customers to poach). Doing so means it will likely need to be a less niche system, offering more lens flexibility and modern features. In any case, we will see. I am not at all convinced they will do it, despite the people who have heard from inside Leica that it is happening. I will believe it when I see it in a Leica store. But I am mildly optimistic that they will resurrect it in some form.

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The S2 was a radical camera back when it was introduced, it created a new genre of camera between a studio camera and smaller formats. Today the market for crop-sensor MF is busy and smaller sensor cameras are very close in image quality, however there is very little activity in the high-end MF market. It would seem like a great opportunity to take over this segment with a large sensor camera and lenses. With the Hasselblad H now gone and Phase One struggling along with limited budget there has never been a better time. 

If I were Leica that's what I would do. Create a larger sensor camera compatible with a Sinar tech camera, big resolution, new lenses and adapters. Do deals with studios and rental companies and establish Leica as the leading high end brand for studio, fashion and location commercial shooting. Landscape, portrait and enthusiast photographers with the budget would follow along as it would be the pinnacle of the industry. Particularly if it combined the (relative) portability of mirrorless with the weather proofing and ergonomics of the S. As a halo product it would also help to sell Leica's more affordable products.

I'm not sure Leica is brave enough to be this radical again but the opportunity is there and my feeling is that it would be more successful than another camera that is much like an X2D but more expensive, or with marginally better image quality than an SL2/3 but slower, and more expensive. Going with my gut though, I'd guess that the SL3 will be their range topping camera for the next few years while they drag their feet and eventually give up on the idea of a new S. Hopefully I'm wrong.

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3 hours ago, steveash said:

With the Hasselblad H now gone and Phase One struggling along with limited budget there has never been a better time.

I did not realize that the Hasselblad H series was discontinued? What happened at Hasselblad?

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4 hours ago, leicapages said:

I did not realize that the Hasselblad H series was discontinued? What happened at Hasselblad?

I'm pretty sure they announced it, but the X system is vibrant which is the mirrorless MF.  I think (big guessing) that Leica is going to do the same and create the S (mirrorless) with a new breed of lenses like the SL but fit for the MF sensor.

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