m11 camera shake VS m10-r

[hmzimelka]

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4 hours ago, Harout62 said:

Can we go even lower ???? how about 1/8th of a second 

All this was taken in my garage 50mm Summilux Asph Hand held 60mpx, The M11 has no issues Learn to use it or just sell it and move on 

 

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Hand held, sure, I believe you 😂😂😂

The thread's replies have really shone light on the direction in which this forum headed. Surprised a moderator hasn't stepped in already. 

 

[m410]

1 hour ago, Harout62 said:

Lol , I could take this to another level, but I will show some respect and leave things be 

Thanks for your review and your series of tests images.

[Cobram]

5 hours ago, rustyrus said:

I think Harout may be a bit more direct than I with this problem but I legitimately have no idea what you guys are talking about. 

 

You can't shoot a 35mm and get sharp pictures unless shooting at 1/180 or faster? The below is a picture I wasn't after crazy sharp details up close but its handheld at 1/15. I use the 3 points of contact method. This is a you problem not a Leica problem. 

 

 

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Interesting pinky water. Is it M11 color rendering or some kind of special natural phenomena?

[ianforber]

I hadn’t noticed any camera shape so just had a go. This is 1/15 and taken using the CV 35 f1.5 at its closet focus distance (~0.5m) so I had to use the rear screen. Arms braced against body and as a result not pressed against my face. I think I was consciously moderating my breathing rather than pressing the button without thinking about it. Everyone will have different standards but I’m happy with it

 

 

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Just tried it at 1/4s and everything was blurred. 1/15 seems to be the limit of my personal capabilities 

Edited April 3, 2023 by ianforber
Update

[ryanlowry]

Step right up and see how low can you go!!

[SrMi]

Something may be mechanically wrong with @ryanlowry's camera. The best would be to try another M11 body and see if the IQ problem persists.

Edited April 3, 2023 by SrMi

[01af]

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vor 19 Stunden schrieb ryanlowry:

Has anyone extensively used M10, M10-R, and M11 that could speak to this for me?

Yes.

There is absolutely no difference in these cameras (or any other 35-mm-format cameras) in terms of sensitivity to camera shake ... or rather, loss of sharpness due to camera shake. After all, they are the same image format and virtually same size, same weight. Given the same lens, blur from camera shake depends on shutter speed and your individual ability to hand-hold the camera steadily.

An amount of camera shake that will transform a single point in your subject into a streak of, say,  one 10th of a millimeter in the image on the M10 sensor will transform the same point into a streak of 1/10 mm on the M11 sensor also. Hence—same loss of sharpness. As simple as that. End of story.

[Jeff S]

And, as you wrote, a function of magnification, not pixel count; hence my earlier questions to OP.

Jeff

Edited April 3, 2023 by Jeff S

[hdmesa]

With my previous copy of the M11, I would occasionally get slightly blurred handheld photos taken at shutter speeds that typically freeze any motion on my part. I’m talking landscape at infinity f/8 photos around 1/400 sec. I haven’t used my current M11 long enough to see if the issue continues, but I expect it will because:

I chalk this up to extremely poor handheld technique on my part, like involuntary flinching when shooting a firearm. Some shake-induced motion can’t be frozen at under 1/1000 sec. Because of this, when shooting handheld at 60mp resolution, I always take several shots to make sure I get a good ones (when shooting an important photo).

That said, I wish we could get EFCS added in firmware so as to minimize potential vibrations from the front curtain shutter. Why not electronic shutter? It’s better, but the slow readout speed of the M11 can have its own issues if handheld technique is not on point.

Regarding M10-R vs M11, this is mmm has already been discussed in the super-long original M11 thread. Summary: if an image from each camera is viewed at 100% magnification or higher, then obviously the M11 can record any motion blur in greater detail. But if the images from the M11 are reduced to M10-R resolution, there will be zero difference between them — provided the mechanical shutter was the same between models, which we know it isn’t. But in my opinion, the M11 shutter is not causing shutter shock, but the sound of the M11 shutter is longer and may cause more of a flinch reaction that the quick and quiet snap sound of the M10-R shutter may not cause. The flinching is not because of the shutter sound of the current exposure, it’s about the learned reaction to previous shutter sounds. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by hdmesa

[Rupert Greenwell]

I too am wondering if there is something wrong with the camera.  I purchased a M10 Monochrom and I found that I was getting camera shake but others were not. I thought that my technique was quite good as  I had not experienced this before.

I decided to sell the M10M as I did not get on with it, the 'shake' not helping. I sent the camera to a dealer to sell on commission, the dealer contacted me to say that the top plate was loose and they would send it to Leica to be fixed. ( I had not noticed this).

Some 6 months later the camera had not sold and I asked for it back. Using it again I found that the 'shake' had gone. In the meantime I had bought a M10R but found that I did not experience shake with that camera in the way that I had with the M10M.

Recently whilst using the M10M and the M10R I noticed that when I released the shutter I could feel the camera move slightly from left to right. This was new  to me, I stopped using both cameras for a month as I felt that I may have developed a habit.  Today having read the thread I have used them again. I still detect a movement and really have to concentrate to try and avoid it.

When I pick up my M10P and release the shutter the movement is not there, the release feels a lot more  stable to me . My  M10P has a slightly noisier shutter than the M10 R and M10M.  The M10P has been used a lot more and was once hit by shotgun pellets which would have otherwise gone into my chest ! so it has been in the 'wars' as they say but still to me has the better shutter release .

 Perhaps you should get your  camera looked at or as others have suggested try another M11 for comparison.

 

[geoffreyg]

Another possibility which has been hinted at above, but more explicitly: there could be a difference with the M11 with its shutter (feel, sound, action) and your technique that just aren't jelling. I had a period with M cameras where I would jerk just at the time of shooting and got poor results. With the M10M, the shutter is so sweet, that this doesn't seem to happen. (also shooting at higher shutter speeds, tho). The M11 has a longer time of noise/action, and maybe that is catching you out. 

[billm212]

It’s not possible to eliminate shutter shock or technique unless you use a tripod and a remote release and take the best of three separately focused frames and at different shutter speeds. I’m surprised no one has suggested that, although I haven’t gone through the entire discussion. It seems so obvious that if those shots are sharp, it’s a matter of handheld technique. If not sharp, it’s probably shutter shock. 

[SrMi]

56 minutes ago, billm212 said:

It’s not possible to eliminate shutter shock or technique unless you use a tripod and a remote release and take the best of three separately focused frames and at different shutter speeds. I’m surprised no one has suggested that, although I haven’t gone through the entire discussion. It seems so obvious that if those shots are sharp, it’s a matter of handheld technique. If not sharp, it’s probably shutter shock. 

The tripod does not help with the shutter shock.

[dkmoore]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:42 AM, 01af said:

Yes.

There is absolutely no difference in these cameras (or any other 35-mm-format cameras) in terms of sensitivity to camera shake ... or rather, loss of sharpness due to camera shake. After all, they are the same image format and virtually same size, same weight. Given the same lens, blur from camera shake depends on shutter speed and your individual ability to hand-hold the camera steadily.

An amount of camera shake that will transform a single point in your subject into a streak of, say,  one 10th of a millimeter in the image on the M10 sensor will transform the same point into a streak of 1/10 mm on the M11 sensor also. Hence—same loss of sharpness. As simple as that. End of story.

You are absolutely, unequivocally, wrong. 

It doesn’t matter what is causing it, camera shake, high sensitivity, shutter shock, doesn’t matter. It’s 100% fact that there is a difference in required speeds needed to get sharp images between the two cameras.  
 

 

[Jeff S]

Here we go again.

I can only say that I have experienced zero difference regarding shake/blur from similar techniques and similarly sized prints derived from either my film M’s, M8.2, M(9)M, M240, M10, M10-R or M10M.

I haven’t tried the M11, but maybe it has some secret ingredient(s). 

Jeff

Edited April 6, 2023 by Jeff S

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, dkmoore said:

You are absolutely, unequivocally, wrong. 

It doesn’t matter what is causing it, camera shake, high sensitivity, shutter shock, doesn’t matter. It’s 100% fact that there is a difference in required speeds needed to get sharp images between the two cameras.  

Some of us already had a higher upper shutter speed minimum on the M10-R, perhaps even more than was needed, so moving to the M11 made little difference.

[THEME]

Of course, it's mathematically logical that more detail / pixels in the same sensor space is more prone to blur / shake when all other things are equal (shutter speed, aperture, ISO). On the other hand, ISO sensitivity keeps improving with each new camera generation, so overall one might have to adjust a setting or two to max out the benefits of a higher-resolution sensor. Increase ISO by one or two stops, accept a slightly faster shutter speed - and camera shake becomes a non-issue.

[sometimesmaybe]

2 hours ago, THEME said:

Increase ISO by one or two stops, accept a slightly faster shutter speed - and camera shake becomes a non-issue.

i think @ryanlowry wants to use a flash and hence he's stuck at 1/180.

there is no real substitute for good light. of course you can move people around (being directly lit by a window etc), but sometimes you just gotta use a strobe

[THEME]

1 hour ago, sometimesmaybe said:

i think @ryanlowry wants to use a flash and hence he's stuck at 1/180.

there is no real substitute for good light. of course you can move people around (being directly lit by a window etc), but sometimes you just gotta use a strobe

Ah, cannot circumvent flash sync speed? Sorry, never using flash...

There's a sweet spot until what resolution a full-frame sensor makes sense. I'd reckon 60MP is pretty close to it. For most uses/users it's already more than we'll actually ever need. Yes, storage gets cheaper, sensors have higher and higher resolution, but can't avoid plain basic physics. Instead of aiming at higher-res camera makers should aim for absolutely clean blacks and the eradication of noise. They'll get there. Until further notice: aim to control human trembling. That's right, we cannot stay completely still, there's always this human factor that relativizes what would be perfect technology in itself.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

We said that about 8 MP, 12 MP, 18 MP, 24 MP. The industry wants us to buy the newest… Noiseless sensors? That will never be. There is cosmic noise, black matter, background radiation,  random quantum effects, etc. The solution lies in software and AI.